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Thread: Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe

  1. #11
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    Collath,
    I can assure you, you didn't put me to sleep, I was just out of town for a day. I agree with your above posting about the difficulty in forming cases. Since my rifle is the rimmed version and I was using(and Gene before me used) rimmed 30-06 cases, the rim keeps the cases centered so they expand evenly.In other cases,where the rim on the case didn't fit the rim recess, I found that wraping a narrow piece of "scotch"tape or file lable around the head for the fireforming, keeps it centered.After that, the tape is not needed anymore.I never formed jacketed bullets for myself, but did help my late friend make .358" bullets to market in support of .358 Enterkin Mag. rifles he was selling(commercial 35 bullets did the same as the 22 Savage bullets in your rifle).He was the best I ever knew at getting free labor. He was sorting the bullets into batches with 0.1grain difference(these were 250gr bullets), which resulted in much explanation to customers.His son in law suggested weighing them before seating the cores and forming the points.He then adjusted the weight with the little "wire" from the "squirt"die.Since he was "bonding" the cores, when he heated them the little pieces used to adjust the weight melted into them anyway.In my opinion,seating the cores would be enough to put it all together, even if the cores are not bonded. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the process,I suspected you had to go through the full blown thing. I have a corbin swaging press, but since I'm not in business, I thought the number of bullets I would need wouldn't support buying the necessary dies.Have you ever thought selling a few bullets?
    Mike

  2. #12
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    Gehmann/vom Hofe advertised the 5.6x61, 77 gr Paraboloid bullet, 26" barrels, at 3700 fps, the rimmed version at 3480 fps.
    The only DEVA pressure tested load Gehmann once gave for the rimless 5.6x61 and the original proprietary 77 gr bullet was 61 gr H870 for 3395 fps.
    Last edited by Axel E; 02-23-2015 at 05:30 PM.

  3. #13
    collath
    Guest
    Sharps, I am glad because unusual guns and calibers are of great interest to me and handloading is a passion. I'm afraid that it probably shows. I put some pictures in of some push through dies that I made to reduce .515" lead down to .497" for my 12.7 x 44R in case your are interested.

    Push through dies II.jpg

    Also the neck expander set I made to form that case from .348 Win brass.

    Neck expander tools.jpg

    I love this stuff. Thanks

  4. #14
    collath
    Guest
    Mike,

    I was kidding but the truth is that when I start talking handloading most peoples' eyes just glaze over like they are in a trance. It appears I am in good company here. The tape idea is great and should have figured that out myself. It will save a lot of fiddling around.

    I never heard of the 358 Enterkin Mag before is it like the 358 Barnes? If it is could see where you might issues with bullets. I think the Barnes could do 3000+ with a 350 grain bullet. That's a hot rod.

    I would like to post some last comments on my experience with the vH and a couple of pictures. There are options to the expense of a swaging press and dies. I am not in the business of making bullets either but I would offer to bump up some factory bullets for you to try gratis. I'll try to get that info up this evening. Thanks much for the comments.

  5. #15
    collath
    Guest
    Axel,

    More good info. I had one of these bullets or I think I had one and gave it to Richard Corbin to copy when he was making the dies for me. It is a very complex shape and he got as close as he could but I can't say it is a perfect copy. I don't like to talk loads on the net for obvious reasons but I will say that I was surprised by what you wrote because I worked up to the same powder and charge with my bullet at just slightly over 3400 FPS. Do you happen to know what the maximum pressure was supposed to be. I have a listing that shows the MAP pressure at 4400 bar and that is a lot!

    Thanks again.

  6. #16
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    collath,
    I used 8x50R Lebel for my 12.7x44(although I trim cases to 42mm), I think you will find it easier than 348 to make cases from and 348 is now pretty hard to find. The groove diameter of my 12.7 is .501", it's interesting that yours is .497". I load with a combination of dies,so I use .509" bullets,because the cases sized in the 50-70 die won't hold a smaller bullet.They chamber fine and my theory is the larger bullet centers the cartridge in the chamber better. The .358 Enterkin was dreamed up by my late friend and mentor Gene Enterkin in the late 1950s(he told me that it came to him in a dream). It is on the full length H&H case and with his 250 gr rebated boattailed bonded core bullet would go over 3000 fps. The chronograph would read 3018,or 3012,etc. without any correction for instrumental vs muzzle velocity, elevation, or temp and no rounding off to the next hundred fps;like some do. He sold them as proprietary caliber rifles and sold ammo to those that didn't handload. He had dies made by RCBS and sold them to those that did. It was similar to the 358 G&A Alaskan, but much older and beat the Alaskan velocity. The Alaskan usually was chrographed from a 24"barrel and Gene used 26" barrels, so they would be pretty equal with same length barrels.A couple years before we lost him, he went to Africa and pro hunters let him use the 358 on Buffalo and Lion, inspite of it not really being allowed. They were so impressed with it that asked him to make a 375 version. Shortly before he passed away, he had worked the 375 up, had reamers made, had a couple rifles made (I chambered the last one for him), fireformed and packed cases up to send to RCBS(Huntington-I think); but wasn't able to send them off. before he passed away. I was able to buy 358 and 375 reamers and headspace gauges, as well as the pressure barrel, and an incomplete barreled action from the family.I would have liked to buy more, but there was just so much I could afford. I put the rifle together and stocked/scoped,and sighted it in mostly as a keepsake in memory of my mentor. I may load it down to 35 Whelen and hunt with it sometime, but I'm really more into sporting metric calibers.
    I think I will buy a box of heavy .224 Bullets at the next gunshow and take you up on your kind offer.
    Mike

  7. #17
    collath
    Guest
    Mike,

    I can see where the 8 x 50R Lebel would make a good start for the 12.7 x 44R but don’t you have to open it up even further than the 348 Win. I had a hundred 348’s laying around so I started with those. I posted pictures of the tools I made to size bullets and expand the necks earlier in this post. I would rough trim, then anneal, then expand up one level, then anneal again and expand to the next increment and then the final expand to hold the bullet. I tried 50-90 Gov. cases next but the base was too big to fit in the chamber of my rifle and I didn't want to make a die to swage them. The chamber in this gun is at the very minimum dimensions. I would think 8 x 50 Lebel’s are not just laying around at the corner gun shop either and you’re right about 348. They are impossible to find and that is what lead me to switch to 50 Alaskan brass. This case is based on the 348 head so it is almost ready right out of the box. All that is needed is a trim to length and size to hold the bullet. However, I had the same problem that you did with holding the bullet even after full sizing without the expander in the 50-90 die. What I did was use a 50 Beowulf sizing die and part way size the case until the bullet is a very snug in the case. This case solves all the problems and Starline has just started making them again plus they are pretty cheap. I have been working on loads but it is just too cold to play with right now.

    I’m sorry to hear about your friend and mentor he sounds like a good guy. It’s nice that you were able to get enough things together to build one rifle. It’s a fitting tribute to him. I don’t have any reference to this cartridge in any of my books so it has to be pretty rare. The story about his using it in Africa is impressive because the guides are usually pretty firm about following the rule. The gun and shooter must have impressed them a lot.

    I would be happy to do the bullets for you and perhaps we could connect offline but I confess that I don’t know how to do it from this site. Thanks very much.

  8. #18
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    collath, at the very top of the page you will see; welcome, your handle, notifications, my profile, etc. The notifications is where you'll receive PM's. To send Mike a PM just click on his name then click on private message. Just like e-mail from there.

  9. #19
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    collath,
    I guess some members don't want to hear about the 12.7x44R,so if you PM me I will send you my email address. In opening cases up a lot, I find it a lot easier to fireform them with cormmeal and no bullet. When I expand them a lot ( I have an "M"die set up with different sizes of home built expanders),they often expand unevenly and the case mouth is far from square. Usually I expand some, then fireform the rest( trial&error for each case). Graf had 8x50R ammo and cases.
    Mike

  10. #20
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    Heck no, I want to read about it!!!

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