New member looking for info on JP Sauer and Sohn "Tell .22" rifle

[jquest303]

Hello I am a new member looking for info on a rifle that was passed down to me from my father, who got it from his father. The rifle was obtained during WWII in Germany. I have not been able to find much at all online and hope someone here can help me to get more information, including what it is worth. From what I know, it's a JP Sauer and Sohn "Tell .22" stalking rifle. Made in Germany around 1912 (I was told).

Thank you in advance for your time!
-Jon

[bentwrench]

Welcome, that is a fine inheretance piece. It is nice when fine firearms can go from generation to generation.

[mike ford]

Jon,
Welcome, we are happy to have you with us. We should be able to tell you more, if you remove the barrel/forearm and post clear photos of the marking underneath the barrel and on the lug, if any. Also, I can't make out the word(seems partially covered by rear scope base) after 22, and it would be helpful if would post a better photo of it. Merry Christmas.
Mike

[Axel E]

Your rifle is a "Tell II". Though originally made for the .22 kurz = short cartridge, soon the .22 lang für Büchsen = long rifle was chambered instead, after that cartridge became known in Germany. Here is the ad for Sauer & Sohn's "Tell" tm break open rifles from the 1908 Akah wholesale catalog:

Sauer & Sohn marked these light rifles with underlever, single bite design as their models "Tell I - V". The design was copied by several Zella - Mehlis makers in large numbers, so such rifles by other makers are called "Tell type".

[mike ford]

Axel,
Could you tell us how to know the difference between a Tell II and a Tell III, when the caliber can't be clearly seen? These in centerfire chambering often have clawmount rear base covering the designation.
Mike

[jquest303]

Thanks everyone for the info! Appreciate it! Can anyone tell me what it's worth?? Here are a few more pictures...

Thanks again, and happy new year!!
-JonIMG_6104.jpgIMG_6105.jpgIMG_6106.jpgIMG_6107.jpg

[Axel E]

Could you tell us how to know the difference between a Tell II and a Tell III, when the caliber can't be clearly seen?

Look at the catalog descriptions above: "Tell II" was for "Randfeuer - Patrone" = rimfire cartridges, while "Tell III" was in "6mm Centralfeuer-Patrone Cal. 22 (Winchester) = centerfire cartridge .22 Winchester = 5.6x35R Vierling. So you have to look at the firing pin position. If it is set up for rimfires, it is a Tell II, if centerfire, a Tell III, IV or V. Tell I was a smoothbore shotgun in 12mm, usable with .410 shells. Of course, these "Tell I - V" model designations apply to Sauer & Sohn made rifles only.
As "22 LAN(G)" is still legible, this rifle is in .22 long rifle.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I couldn't make out the "Lan" until the additional photos were posted, see my request for them above.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike,
I did make them out in the first series of photos, second pic. So it must be a Tell II.
Axel

[Mauser9x57]

Hi,
I'm busting in on a thread I'm afraid, but just too excited to stop myself. I have had a Tell in 32-20 for years and always assumed it was rechambered to that caliber, although I never could figure out what would have been the original caliber. Just didn't realize the Germans had picked up on this old Winchester caliber. Here it shows mine is original and a Tell IV. I'm just loving this forum! Axel thank you so much for posting that ad. Makes me feel a little dumb too, but that's an everyday occurrence so I'm used to it.
Dave

[Jim Cate]

The majority of the Sauers in the 271xxx range were made in the 1935 era. That info is from my database. Thought you'd like to know. Best regards, Jim

[kgman68]

Hey all,
The reason I joined this group was to find out more about the same type gun I inherited with my father's collection. I know little about these guns, but this one seems to be pretty mint given the age. I think this one is a Tell II WIN RAND, and seems to have been manufactured around WW1. Any info is appreciated including possible value. I'm trying to value this collection for insurance purposes.20160101_160219.jpg

[mike ford]

kgman68,
I resist giving an estimate of the value of someone else's guns, that I don't have "in hand". However, I will offer some observations that you might find helpful. It would be very helpful if you would provide additional photos, especially of the proof marks, found on the bottom of the barrel. From the single photo, it seems you have a very nice rifle, that you can be proud of. The rifle has been "drilled and tapped", for a scope mount. This will likely be cited as a problem, by "collectors", that reduces the value. On the other hand, since you are looking for insurance value, it seems you intend to keep it( which I encourage), which means anyone else's opinion about the screws doesn't matter. Now, you can re-mount a scope and use the rifle with joy, without having to take the criticism for "drilling and tapping" it. I think it is a Tell type II, chambered for 22 short. This is based in the advertisements provided by Axel. Sometimes an advertisement is incorrect about some particular item. The caliber designation of "22 Winch. Rand.", is shown in the advertisement as meaning 22 short. However the American understanding of "22 Winchester Rim Fire" is an entirely different cartridge that was available at the time, and used in Germany( it uses an inside lubricated bullet). While I'm guessing you already know, you can pretty easily ID the caliber, by chambering a 22 Long Rifle cartridge. If it won't chamber at all, it has a 22 Short chamber, if it almost goes in, it is a 22 Long chamber, if it chambers well, it is 22LR, if it " falls in" and is loose, it has a 22WRF chamber. It seems to be common ( from "Antiques Road Show") to establish the insurance value at a higher amount than retail value. I'm unable to answer why, however. If someone else offers an opinion about your rifle, the additional photos would very helpful to them, Jim Cate might be able to date the rifle, if you show the serial number.
Mike

[kgman68]

Thanks Mike...this is helpful. I'm still pretty confused about the caliber/load. The chamber seems large, or high velocity(hornet)? I included a pic with an attempt at size reference. I would have never known the scope drillings are not original to the gun. thanks for that info. Your correct, I'm not really interested in selling, just looking for a start to value. I guess I could go the 'prove me wrong' route, but thinking they will want more evidence of value. Because these are fairly uncommon, it's been hard locating anyone that can offer a real appraisal. Here are a few more pics. I can post more if it's helpful. Appreciate the help. Ken
breach.jpgchamber.jpgserial.jpgside mark.jpg

[mike ford]

kgman68,
I suppose it is possible that the rifle was converted to a larger cartridge, such as 22 Hornet( or 22 Win. Center Fire/ 5.6x35R Vierling), but it is marked Tell II, which were rimfires. If it was converted in Germany, it should have a "repair"( crown over R) proof mark. If converted in the US, it might not be marked. On the other hand If it was converted anywhere, the breech face would show the work. To see either the proof marks or the breech face, you must remove the barrel. This should be a pretty simple operation. You should remove the hinge pin, which has the lever on the left side. Not having a Tell, myself, I don't know if the forearm has to be removed. If so, the method for doing so will be self evident. The number 527 is the bore(not groove or bullet) diameter, expressed as a gauge measurement. The crown over B proof mark is for a single definitive proof, with provisional proof charge. The Eagle above the definitive proof is the mark for a provisional proof of the barrel. To tell you more, I need to see the bottom of the barrel and breech face. If Jim Cate sees this posting he may date the rifle by the serial number which can be seen. He dated the other Tell in this thread and you might glean something from that.
Mike