When did all this begin? (16 gauge & 8X57JRS)

[Gut-n-Tight]

I find myself asking: When did 16 gauge shotguns begin growing into 2 3/4 inch lengths and when did the J (.318") bore succumb to the S bore (.323") in its rimmed version?

[mike ford]

Gut-in-Tight
As I understand it, the 65mm chamber is still "standard" and if you could find a new gun without the length shown ( 16 in a circle), then it would be 65mm. All others have to show the chamber length. Sometime after WW2, most of them were made and marked 70mm. I lived there first in 1971 and that was so then. Shells for 65mm chambers were still very easy to find then, however. In military rifles, the .323" "S" bore came in , in about 1903 and was completely changed over in about 1905. During the change over M88 Commission rifles in the inventory were checked and modified, as necessary, to use the new Spitzer ( ie S) ammo. This included changing the sights, and checking the chambers to see it the diameter of the neck part of the chamber was large enough to be safe with S ammo. Those that were not had the neck area reamed to the S diameter. The actual groove diameter of most M88 barrels was really closer to .322" than .318". The M88 ammo, had .318" bullets. Keep in mind that the M88 was their first high velocity cartridge with a jacketed bullet, and it was following a black powder cartridge that had a bullet smaller than bore diameter and depended on bullet obturation to fit the bullet to the barrel. Therefore, the bullet smaller than groove diameter was really pretty standard at the time. Things changed as a result of the testing that preceded adoption of the "S" bullet. BTW M88 rifles had been proofed at the same pressure as the new M98 rifles. As a result of losing WW1, the Germans had restrictions placed on manufacture of weapons and ammo. From the start, the .318" bulleted ammo was considered hunting ammo in both rimmed and rimless versions and military ammo( rimless) was .323". Prior to WW2, the Nazis disregarded the treaty and accelerated production of weapons and ammo. Maybe as a matter of pride or resistance to the treaty, more .323" rifles and ammo were produced for hunting, although I have seen drillings proofed in 1944 for 8x57IR. Pretty much after the Germans regained control of their country and were able to make guns again, they made the hunting guns mostly in 8x57IRS( of course all the other calibers were also made). As far as I know there wasn't a specific date where all before were .318" and all after were .323". BTW, Axel reported that after the treaty, Mauser Oberndorf chambered their .318 rifles with necks large enough for "S" bullets, even if marked "N" ( round nose). Others may have done this, but it's not documented. Also, concerning the modification of M88 for "S" ammo, this only applied to military M88s in the German military inventory. It did not apply to Sporting rifles and it did not apply to rifles produced for other countries. As a result, it is always a good idea to check your rifle. If I keep this up, I will have everybody confused.
Mike

[sharps4590]

That's a good question about shotshells. Here's what I've....read. I don't know if it's 100% true or not so with that warning, take it for what you paid for it. I'm much more interested in rifles than shotguns so don't pursue shotgun history to much extent. Any and all better and/or corrected information is appreciated.

Apparently back in the late 1800's, in the black powder days, shotshells ranged from 2 1/2 to over 3 inches, in this country. Evidently with the advent of smokeless powders 2 1/2-2 9/16 became "standard". I think 2 1/2 - 2 9/16 was pretty much standard in Europe already but don't know that. My understanding is that in the 1920's, in this country, 2 3/4 began to be the standard. I have read that the change was as much to do with the advent of the star crimp as anything else.

There...now you know I know that might be true...lol!! I'm sorry I'm of no more help.

[Gut-n-Tight]

I am familiar with S marked Gewehr 1888s and the Austrians doing similar with their M1895 Mannlicher conversions to 8X56R but I still cannot dream, as a novice, the why behind changing the bore diameter just because you decide you want a pointed bullet. I would think that those experts then had a good reason. But, I wish I know the why behind that one.
On the same plane I cannot see why Germanic sporting firearm makers would see the need to change the 8X57R's bullet diameter. To me this is like US manufacturers deciding in the 1970's to up the bullet diameters of 38 Special & .357 to .363 and then calling the ammo 38 Special 'S' & .357 Magnum 'S'.
As to the 16 gauge: I came across a shotgun shell site that had very old US Remington ammo catalogues in pdf form. Many listed empty hulls for 16 gauge, 2 - 3 inch for sale but their loaded 16 ga. ammo was all 2 1/2". The 16 gauge 1938 dated Heym that we discussed elsewhere, I pointed out how the 70 (mm) marking was a different font that used in the circled 16. This Heym must have been originally set up for 2 1/2" shells but got altered to take 2 3/4". When? Who knows? Yesterday, I bought a Nimrod side plate drilling made in 1939. Both barrels bear 65 & 70 mm markings!
I was laboring under the delusion that 2 3/4" did not get popular until after WWII. Somehow, all this fascinates me and apparently a lot of us also.
Back to the 8X57 S or Not in my Heym. I do now understand that it is not so much the issue of bullet size but the diameter of the chamber neck. If too small a neck and lead is present when firing the bigger bullet will drive the pressure spike up before the bullet has begun to move down the barrel.
I am reminded that in my youth I bought a Christoph Funk sporter. I was told it was 8mm. It was. I first shot it using the noncorrosive Canadian 8mm surplus ammo that was available in the early 70's. After firing about five rounds I noted something amiss. The shoulder of the spent hulls had moved forward considerably! The rifle turned out to be in 8X60 with a .318 bore. Norma hulls and .318" bullets were available then. No harm appeared. I would believe that having a big gap between the .323" bullet and the end of the 8X60's chamber helped to reduce the pressure spike.
Bitte Schon.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight
The bore diameters of the "I" bore and "S" bore are pretty close to the same, the grooves were deepened as a result of the testing before accepting the spitzer bullets. Much more than the shape of the bullet changed. The original round nose bullet weighed around 236grains and the spitzer bullet around 154. This drastically increased the velocity; which was, after all, the reason for the whole exercise. The French had just adopted the "Balle D"(?) bullet for the 8x50R Lebel at a high velocity, and the Germans were catching up, with the Americans following in 1906 ( 30-03 replaced by 30-06). The testing showed changes were necessary to insure the high velocity ammo's accuracy, and these were the changes they chose. You mentioned the 38 special and making a 38 Special "S". This was actually done before adoption of the .357 Mag., except for the name. The 38-44 was a high velocity loading of the 38 special, intended only for 44 frame (N frame) revolvers. Unfortunately, they would chamber in 38 frame (M&P) revolvers, also. The solution they adopted was to increase the case length( instead of bullet diameter) and change the name to .357 from .38. If you think 8mm diameters are confusing, when you have time, check the diameter of the following 38 cal. bullets- 38 S&W, 38 S&W Special, 38 ACP/ Super, 38 Colt/long Colt, 38-55 Win. and 38 WCF. When a gun with 65mm chambers is rechambered to 70mm, in Germany, it must be reproofed and the date would be noted. If there is no reproof, the rechambering was likely done is the US. The addition of the 70 is lucky as more than a few have been rechambered in the US, with no marking at all. If you still have the Christoph Funk, I believe PRVI still loads 8x60S ammo that is imported to the US ( see Graf ). The same test as I described for 8x57 will tell you if their ammo is useable.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Mike
That was informative. I've always considered the US 38 caliber, from what started as a 36 caliber, to be that unknown Yankee (Ami) gene surfacing that everything should be upscaled and improved. But, I still think making the 8X57R's case and shoulder just a smidge longer and giving the cartridge a new name (such as the 1903/30-06 example given) would have gotten the desired affect without the confusion. In lieu of a 8X57JRS we could have gotten a 8X58 RS - not to be confused with the 8X58 Sauer. They could have made my new drilling cartridge so that the newer .323" round would not fit into the older JRS chambers but the older cartridge could still be fired safely in the newer gun. Just wishing.
Terry

[fuhrmann]

The date for strict definition of the 8 mm calibers and for introduction of the "S" nomenclature for hunting ammunition must be around 1940.
This is explained in detail in the RWS "Schiesstechnisches Handbuch f?r J?ger und Sch?tzen", 2nd edition, 1940:
- the confusion and problems with having different 8 mm calibers
- strict separation of the old .318 (7,80/8,07 mm) and the newer .3123 S calibers (7,89/8,20 mm),
- strict labelling of ammunition: "S" cartridges must have the S designation, a red warning label on the box, and black primers.
- in future the new S caliber to be preferred: new guns to be chambered in the S calibers, ammunition for the older .318 calibers still produced, but destined to become obsolete
- formal introduction of the cartridge 8x57 IRS!


All this valid for the modern nitro calibers
8x57 rimless and rimmed
8x60 rimless and rimmed
8x64 rimless
8x65 rimmed
8x75 rimmed

8x68 S existed only as S or .323 caliber

the older cartridges descending from BP times were to remain in .318 bore only (and to become obsolete as well), e.g
8x57R/360
8x58R
8x72R
and maybe more..
these never existed as "S" calibers

After the war, this practice was continued in Western Germany

fuhrmann

[Gut-n-Tight]

Okay, I slept on all this. (The why behind the groove .005" difference?) Let's see if I got this straight. After all the armies got their smokeless powder repeaters that shot big heavy and long projectiles along came lighter and pointed bullets upon the scene. Promising greater velocities and flatter trajectories a new bandwagon began rolling. With the Gewehr 98 established it was decided that the rifle needed deeper grooves to better stabilize the lighter bullets and or to delay the affects of barrel erosion. I can see this when talking of the army's guns but I still cannot see the need for changing civilian break-open gun ammunition unless that Ami 'faster is better' virus had somehow also infected the Fatherland. Were the gun makers devising a devilish plan that all the sportsmen would be needing to buy all new guns before kicking their bucket? Oh my gosh. Here we gather a decade, or nearly, later with our long obsolete arms, some still firing our long obsolete patronen as visions of confusion dance in many a bewildered head. Got to love it! Thanks All.

[fuhrmann]

Well, in those years from ca. 1900 to the 1930s there was so much experimenting and developing going on in Germany, not just for the army but also with hunting cartridges.
What we see is the result of this, and of the lack of regulation or normalisation in the early years.
No need to think of an American virus...there were plenty of high-velocity experimenters in Germany, and at that time they were way ahead.

The "why" question is not important.....things are what they are...
True, at first the "8mm mystery" is confusing, but with some learning and measuring it is actually not too complicated.
fuhrmann

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Americans get confused, by thinking the proof marks showing bore diameter and case length show the "nominal" ( name) cartridge, especially those young enough to not remember when even American guns weren't required to marked as to caliber( even serial numbers were not required until 1968). Go back to my first comment, where the .318 was considered , from the beginning as the "hunting" caliber. Even those guns that had dimensions that we now can see allow use of .321"- .323" bullets, were usually used with .318" bullets. I look on this as an excuse to buy another gun( or 2). It is , as fuhrmann said, not really all that complicated, if you don't get too wrapped up in why they did things differently. Just embrace it, it's all good. If you only have one 8mm, use the bullets that work best. If you get another one then use whatever is best for it. Once we get the 8mms all straightened out, we can start working on the 9.3s. It's all fun, I have a friend that has 5 deer rifles and they are all 30-06, how boring.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Thank goodness I have only one 9.3!

[mike ford]

Terry,
How many 6.5mms do you have, they are about as bad.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

None, I sold everything smaller than 7mm except two rimfires. I never liked cleaning the smaller bores.