Emil Pachmayer hammer drilling - what caliber rifle?

[Gut-n-Tight]

Just got a 16 gauge drilling that I bought, with ten day inspection. I believed the rifle caliber to be 8X57JR but they do not fit - shells too big. Barrel marked 7.8mm (over) 57, and St.m.G./13 gr. Quick measurements appear that rifle cartridge would have a rim of .498", base diameter .431", length about 1.900". Bore appears to be .318" What have I gotten myself into? Serial #9096 with Nitro proofs. pix422632997.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

8x57-360?

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...-57-r-360/2995

EDIT: is there a place name Traunstein on the Drilling?

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Peter's guess ( he showed a ?), is more than a guess, he is precisely correct. As it happens I have both 8x57IR and 8x57R/360 and both have the same marks as yours. This is because the marks are not for the nominal caliber, they show the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter and case length (only). This is confusing, unless you are aware of the circumstances. The 8x57R/ 360 is no longer loaded as a factory cartridge, but is sometimes available from custom handloaders. It uses the same bullet as the 8x57IR and cases are available from Bertram or Buffalo Arms, when "in stock". I load mine using a small "stash" of factory Berdan primed cases, but have "mocked up" cases from original length ( 2.125-2.130") 38-55 Win. cases. and they worked fine. It was only necessary to seat the bullets "out" to the same over all length . If you insist on full length cases and you can't find 8x57R/360 cases "in stock", both firms listed above also have 8x58R S&S, from time to time. To use the 8x58R cases, it is only necessary to fire form and trim to length. I use 8x57 dies and take the expander out of the sizer. A 30-30 shell holder may fit, depending on the maker, but if not, it is simple to open it up a little with a Dremel tool. If anyone advises you to have it rechambered to 8x57IR, you should resist the urge, at all cost. If you decide to load your own, several of us here will be happy to help.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

This morning, before checking my inquiry for a response, I found a Russian web site that gave exact dimensions of cartridges, a lot of them that I never heard of. Prior to this the only cartridges that I thought might fit were; that 8mm Sauer, the 8.15X46 and a 32-40. reminds me of the time I almost bought a drilling that had issues. I brought along one of my snap caps (.303 British) to test snap 8X57JRs, it would not go in more than halfway, almost like what I have here now. The Russian web sight gave the dimensions (both metric & inch) of the 8.15X46R - close but noticeably longer case, and there it was -8X57/360. I am reminded of another hammer drilling that was on GunsInternational (Belgium proofs) marked 360.

Now I have to decide to keep the gun or not. I have two that shoot the JR, lots of ammo & I reload it. The drilling cost me $800 thus far, comes with a minor wrist crack and only one big bottom screw looks like it ever met up with a screw driver. It is plain, post 1912, worn (well handled) but not bad. Very small dent in shot barrel (I can fix) and rifle bore is sharp and bright, action tight-looks a bit better than in the photo.

[mike ford]

Gut-n- Tight, Not having an 8x57R/360 already is reason enough to buy it. You may read that the 8x57R/360 is about equal to the 32-40, but it is really more like the 32 Win. Special. It will kill a White Tail grave yard dead, within any reasonable range. BTW, the 360 you mentioned is likely 9.3x57R ( aka 360- 2 1/4").
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

8X57I&JRs, 9X57Rs, 7X65Rs, 9.3X72Rs my mind is spinning enough. I thought we had identified the drilling at hand as a .360 Nitro Express (2 1/4"). Please don't confuse me further, Mike. I am overwhelmed as it is. The owner let me shoot it. I grabbed a box of RST Falcon Lights 7/8 oz. Shot awfully at skeet. Chokes confirmed: Full & Extra Full. Gun soaking now. The cracked stock did not break and barely wobbles as before shooting. I do like the gun. Buffalo Arms' $108 a box of brass scares me!

Tell me how to load the ammo using 38-55 Winchester brass to ease my mind enough to tell the seller the deal is done.

Regarding that other drilling marked 360 Express, it was a 9.3.
Is what I have for 2" case or 2 1/4" case? I noted that Graf's 38-55 comes in two lengths. I also noted Buffalo Arms sells 9.3X57R/360 brass at half the cost of the .360 Nitro Express.

PS: To Peter, yes, it does - Traunstein.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
I'm sorry if I confused you. As far as the 360 or 9.3 drilling is concerned, it was the one you mentioned in GunsInternational so you can just put that out of your mind for now. To use the "long"( original length) 38-55 cases they only have to be sized to chamber in your gun and likely will have to thin the rims. After this, fireforming it will result is a case that fits the chamber, but slightly short. How you accomplish this is where the fun comes in and depends on the equipment you have and previous experience in making cases. The way I did it was full length size the cases in a 32-40 file trim die, and thin the rims in a lathe. The 32-40 die results in a straight tapered case, which chambers easily and fireforms well. With care, you may be able to use the 8x57IR dies you already have ( but with a different shell holder). To thin the rim, I only had to take off about .010", which just removed the head stamps. With care and more labor, you can thin the rims with a drill press and file. Your drilling may close on an un-thinned rim, or it may need to be trimmed more, just fit them to your drilling ( I make cases for my 6.5x58R S&S the same way and their rims have to be thinned .015" and have to deepen the primer pocket). You can use other cases, that will cost a little more, but will likely not require thinning the rim and will result in a full length case. You can use the same bullets you already use for the 8x57IR, or can resize .321" .32 Winchester Special bullets to fit. Likely, you should be able to use one of the powders you already have on hand, with an appropriate charge weight. The drilling you have is for the 2 1/4" case, but the original length 38-55 ( Graf or Starline calls it the "long" case) cases result in about a 1/8" shorter neck, but works fine. If you have other questions, I will try again to help.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Mike, you have been a big help in my deciding to keep the gun. I do like a challenge although I was not looking for one this time. What do you think of just resizing those Buffalo 9.3X57R cases? I do not have a lathe nor a drill press. I have been reloading ammo for almost 60 years. Don't you wish Berdan primers were available now like they were back then? Going to take a minor shotgun barrel dent out now and open the chokes a bit.

[algmule]

Hello

Emil Pachmayer participated in a number of different shooting contests. Here's one where he won first prize

Tj?ta1.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Resizing 9.3x57R cases would work fine, just take it slow to avoid crumpling the necks, you might start with the seating die, then go to the sizing die. Remove the expander from the sizer and the seating stem from the seater. This way, if something happens, you can drive the case out with a punch. The only disadvantage with the 9.3x57R case is they are a little more expensive. You are just paying someone else to do the work. If you can reload for another 60 years, a small lathe would pay for itself. I "rat holed" enough Berdan primers to "get by" when they were available, in the main sizes.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Mike,
I took one of my fired 9,3X72R cases and attempted to make a 8X57/360 case. Necking down went okay but then the body would not go in all the way. Jammed about halfway in. Maybe it would have worked if the case had not been fired. I was using my 8mm Mauser die which works fine with 8X57IR or Jay if you prefer. As an aside I was surprised to be looking at my almost sized empty .360 NE 2 1/4". If you had just tossed that case to me and asked what is was, I would have replied without close examination, ".303 British." You would have replied, "Wrong." My turn, "It is an 8mm JR then." "Wrong again," would come your reply. At this point I'd be making wild guesses. I have two firearm passions; Germanics came first then British .303 Enfields.
I hope Peter got the word from me about it being marked from Traunstein.
Terry

[algmule]

Hello

Terry,
here's more on Emil Pachmayer. From 1927, my translation.

"The marksman.
As reported from Traunstein, the marksman Emil Pachmay[e]r can look back on a successful shooting career. Although he is only 45 years old, he has already won around a thousand prizes in his life, including three German championships, one world championship and one hundred association- regional- and national championships. He may not only be the best shooter in Germany, but also in Europe."

Any interesting markings on the Drilling? Initials, trademark stamped somewhere?

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight
Using 9.3x72R to make 8x57R/360( also 8x58R, 6.5x58R, 9.3x58 R, etc.) is the "school solution", but the reason I recommend other ( shorter ) cases is because it just seems like a waste to shorten a 72mm case that much. I can understand, however, how others could take a different view if they only have to make cases for one caliber. I make cases for my 8x72R from 9.3x72R, but have to FL size the 9.3 cases before running them through the 32-40 file trim die. Based on this experience, I think it would help you to FL size the 9.3x72 before sizing to 8x57IR, in fact, it may help to shorten them to 60mm first ( final trim to length later). Since you mentioned .303 British , I'm pretty sure Buffalo Arms uses .303 or .30-40 cases as donor cases when they make 9.3x57R, 8x57R/360, 8x58R, etc. If you have a lot of .303 cases and would rather use them, I can talk you through the process. You will need a lathe and hydraulic press( or arbor press or large vise), however. In my opinion, a lathe (and mill) is a requirement of life, anyway. We could tell you more, if you can post photos of all the markings, especially of the proof marks under the barrels . The gun has an old Sauer look to my eye, the markings might confirm or refute that.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Here is a photo of the gun's left lock rom the prior owner. One nice point is that, except for that single big screw on the bottom, none look like they have ever been turned since it was made. It is Nitro proofed. While I do have lots of .303 brass, I have lots of .303s. Redoing 38-55 sounds easier. I have a resizer for making .318 bullets from .321" ones. Recommend me some loads for 150 & 170 grain jacketed bullets. I do have some 8mm Gardner Cache cast gas checked bullets that I use in my 1886 Kropatschek rifle. These are the only lead bullets that will shoot reasonably in the Portuguese rifle. A month ago I found me a package of 10 original 1920's Portuguese ammo for the 1886. Bullets are .318".

pix433185250.jpg

[Gut-n-Tight]

I had to check my bullet cache. I got 150, 170, & 175 grain jacketed bullets on hand. I used up all my cast ones although I have a big box of cast .3115" on hand. Here is another photo. Ordered a 32-40 trim die, 30-30 shell holder, and 50 38-55 cases.

pix449654809.jpg pix530672433.jpg pix746049421.jpg