Was there a 9x56R M.S?

[Tom H.]

I recently brought home a double rifle drilling that was listed as a 9x57r. Nice gun that needs some work (pictures to follow).
Upon a brief measurement of the breech end of the chambers, the greatest diameter is under .470 but not smaller than .465.
My resized brass stays proud of the breech by about .5 inches.
My best resource is a 1938 RWS catalog that lists both the M.S cartridges as well at the standards and there was no 9.56 mit rand.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you

Tom

[algmule]

Hello

This one?

https://old.municion.org/9altres/9x57R.htm

Peter

[mike ford]

Tom,
As far as I know there was no rimmed version of the 9x56 MS. Your rifle is very likely chambered for the 9x57R, which is the rimmed version of the 9x57, based on the M88 case. The 9x57R was a fairly popular cartridge for "tip up" rifles and combination guns. The rimless was also a popular chambering for bolt action rifles, more so than the very similar 9x56MS. The loading dies for the 9x57 are fairly available as a consequence and are perfectly useable for 9x57R with the appropriate shell holder. The Rimmed version was loaded to the same ballistics as the rimless one. While this is unusual it means loading data is fairly available. While some go to a great deal of trouble to obtain 9mm (.355") bullets, but the barrels I have "slugged" and German data indicates the common American 35 caliber (.358") bullets in the heavier weights are appropriate for both versions of the cartridge in most cases. Nevertheless, it is still good practice to slug your barrels and make chamber casts to ensure your rifle is not chambered for some other cartridge (such as 9x58R S&S). The best cases to use, based on the information given, would be 8x57IR or IRS. Because I don't know what cases you used or how you resized them, I am at a loss to explain why they are standing proud by that much.
Mike

Peter,
The cartridge you indicated is the one I believe it is also.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Thank you Peter. That is the standard 9x57r. The dimensions on the case more closely resemble the 9x56MS, but the chamber is cut for a rim.
The inside bottom of the case above the rim measures .465 while the 9x57r measures .470
The problem here is that it follows the same taper so unless I shorten the die, it is a problem.
If I shorten the die, I push the shoulder back.
Can of worms.
Hey Mike. My test case was made from .444 marlin. I think that it is pretty funny that the .444 which is now a classic American lever cartridge, is effectively a straight walled 10.75x57.

Cheers
Tom

[Tom H.]

I neglected to give the details.
Banner on the rib is marked - Wilh.Le Hanne Crefeld

U,W,and S crown on shotgun. U and N crown on rifle.
Script E.W. and Nitro on shotgun.

Having problems converting my pics.
Will post shortly.

Tom

[yamoon]

Tom
A trick I have used on 8.15x46r brass is to use a bench vice with padded jaws, insert the sized brass in the die by hand, place the loaded die between the jaws and force it in until the rim bottoms on the die, use a 1/4 inch brass rod and drive the shell out. You can also install the die in the reloading press and use a piece of flat metal across the ram instead of a shell holder to force the brass into the die to the rim. Be sure to use sizing wax. The old German schuetzen rifles chambered for 8.15x46r seem to have varied chamber dimensions. Good luck.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Thank you Mike.
In the past I have turned down the top of a shellholder to accomplish at least part of that.
What year did normalization of cartridges occur and was 9x57 one of the rounds on the list?
My guess is that is doubtful but worth a shot.
I could just clean up the chambers with a reamer but I am currently not interested in buying (although possibly renting ) a reamer that I will only use once.
Thank you
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
There are several problems using 444 cases for your project, it is possible but harder. First of all, the 444 case is simi-rimmed rather than rimmed. I use 444 cases to make carpenter bee loads for a 410 pistol and the simi-rim often tries to get behind the extractor. Since the 444 case is straight, reducing the neck and upper part of the case may result in "folds", which will cause a split in the neck. Sizing the cases as much as 444 requires results in "tight" cases that sometimes result in pulling the simi-rim out of shell holder, or if you thin the shell holder, it may break. Sometimes the case will "stick". Because of this, I highly recommend using) a piece of steel on the shell holder (as suggested by yamoon) (I just use a 22-hornet shell holder) and remove the expander assy., so tight and stuck cases can be driven out with a punch. Don't worry about setting the shoulder back, the case headspaces on the rim and will fireform to fit. I have old 9x57R cartridges in my "pile" that are headstamped 9x57R-M88. This means the cartridge varies only in neck diameter from the 8x57IR. If you start with either 8x57 IR or IRS, you should only need to fireform them to fit.
Mike Ford

[Tom H.]

I was thinking about setting the shoulder back and relying on the rim for headspace for now.
The 9x58 die that I have is in rough shape so I started trimming it down and will stop when The case fits. I still have to turn down the base as I don't have any cases that are .465.
That amounts to about .003 per side so not a great issue. I will let you know how things work out.
Now I just have to make the spring for the left hammer.

Cheers
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
I have found that 9.3x74R cases from some manufactures are slightly smaller than the .468" of the 8x57R cases. If you shorten 9.3x74R cases to 57mm you should check the neck thickness to see if turning or reaming necks is required. If you can't find 8x57R cases or 9.3x74R you might use 7x65R which I believe are made by Federal or Hornady. Any of these should be easier than 444 because they already have the necks sized smaller and the bodies tapered so will be much less likely to fold up and be destroyed.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Mike.
Interesting discovery. I ended up with more (1) case losses from resizing 8x57R than I did with .444. That being said, the resized 8mm fit perfectly and I believe the problem is with the die which is in questionable condition although good enough to reform brass that is already pretty much the correct shape.
After I finish making the left mainspring, it will be a trip to the range.
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom,
Somewhere above you mentioned a 9x58 die, if that is a 9x58R Sauer and Sohn It would not be appropriate form cases for your rifle if you have a 9x57R. The 9x58R S&S is a straight taper case with a smaller head diameter than the M88 case. Most people make cases for the 9x58R from 9.3x72R (.427" head diameter), it is an entirely different cartridge. If your one case loss (8x57R case) was a split case, I have had similar experience, necking up smaller caliber cases. Also, they often were uneven and had to be trimmed shorter to even the necks. I avoid this by "fire forming" to expand the necks. Rather than a standard expander button, one with a long taper will also help avoid splits. I make fireforming loads with a light load of fairly fast powder, tamp a 1/4 sheet of toilet paper over the powder. Fill the case with a granular material, I use worn polishing media. others use grits, cornmeal, or cream of wheat. Plug the neck with another 1/4 sheet of TP or anything handy that keeps the granular material from spilling. Try one or two and adjust the powder charge as needed. This saves bullets and powder, but you do use primers, The necks are generally even, only requiring minimum trimming.
Mike

[Tom H.]

Update!
Mike, you couldn't have been more correct about picking the correct brass to start with.
This many months later I am still reloading the same 8 cases that I formed from 8x57R brass.
The next problem was regulating the gun and this may end up an article in Waidmannsheil.

Every load, regardless of bullet weight (180-250gr), or velocity, printed apart in two separate groups 8" apart at 50 yards
I created a jig to adjust the barrels, pulled the wedge at the muzzle and regulated it. After about 6 trips to the range it prints within an inch between barrels at 50yds. (muzzle centers are (3/4")

The load that I settled on was the 220gr Speer flat point with 41gr of 3031. It hasn't been chronographed, but my guess is 2100fps.

I was shocked that it didn't seem regulated but there was no arguing with the field testing. I filed up a new front sight and it now also shoots behind the bead.

[sharps4590]

I had a drilling in 9 X 57R. My son bought me some re-formed 444 Marlin, loaded ammo. It wasn't quite worthless, at least I could pull the bullets and salvage the primers. Best results I had was with necked up 8 X 57R and 7 X 57R. I don't remember losing any cases during forming.