My new-old Dreilling

[sakorick]

Newbie here. I've always wanted one of these as I was a German hunting instructor while stationed there back in the mid '70's. Here's what I know about it. SN#225, F. Schluter, Leipzig: A 16 x 16 x 10.3 x 65R rebounding hammer side lever opening Drilling made about 1900, Schluter was the seller and not the maker, It was made by the trade for Schluter the retailer, Steel barrels at .653 .006 & .024" (Imp.Cyl. & Imp.Mod.), 2 1/2" chambers”. It has Krupp steel barrels but I wonder if it is possible to ID the maker based on the proof marks? It's missing both hammer screw otherwise complete. Any help finding the screws/comments greatly appreciated.

[sakorick]

Additional photos

[sakorick]

Last two

[mike ford]

Rick,
This is a nice old drilling and I suspect you will have a good time playing with it. The caliber, however, is not 10.3. The 67/49 indicates a bore diameter of 10.41mm(or slightly larger,up to 10.66).As this is bore diameter,the groove or bullet diameter will be larger. As a guess and accepting the chamber length you noted, I suspect the nominal caliber would be 10.75x65R. You didn't say whether you had made a chamber cast and slugged the bore, or not. If not, you should either do it or have it done. This will give you the information you will need to prepare handloads( assuming you don't already do so). You will not be able to Id the maker from the proof marks. Other, seemingly insignificant marks, however, may help. First of all, check the breach face and inside the opening for the "dolls head". If there are any markings there, post photos. Also post photo of any small markings ahead of the proof marks on the barrels. Some on this forum specialize in trying to Id these marks. With regard to the missing hammer screws, they can likely be replaced by one of the gunsmiths advertising in the "Trade Directory" in WAIDMANNSHEIL or Der WAFFENSCHMIED. Id'ing the thread will be the problem, as will removing any broken screw( from the photo, it seems one may be broken off).Because of this, you will likely need to send the gunsmith the drilling, or at least, the locks. They will let you know.
It's interesting that you were a Hunting instructor in the mid 70s. I was also an instructor at the same time. Which Rod and Gun Club did you teach in? I was stationed in Wuerzburg, but my club was Kitzingen. As President of the North Bavarian Land Council, I often visited the clubs in nothern Bavaria. It's possible we ran across one another.
Mike

[Axel E]

The (protected design) DRGM 76724 for a self-rising rear sight design helps in both pointing to the maker and dating the drilling: It was issued June 28, 1897 to Greifelt & Co, Suhl. As the DRGM protction ended after three years, the gun was made by Greifelt between July 1897 and 1900.

[sakorick]

Hello Mike. The bore measures .422 at the muzzle inside groove. The chamber measures .465? I can't estimate the length as it's too dark now. The company I bought it from sent it to a German master gunsmith who reported the caliber. I was an instructor in Stuttgart in 77 and transferred to the TAMMC in Zweibrucken and taught classes there for two years. I'll soon figure out what caliber this thing is.

For Axel, thanks for the maker info.....how did you ID Greifelt as the maker? Regards, Rick.

[Packmule]

beautiful Drilling

[ellenbr]

Rick:
In an effort to keep Axlel's blood pressure low, he states that for the novel addition/D.R.G.M. or Gebrauchsmuster, Griefelt sought protection in June of 1897. That stamp means hands off for anyone that doesn't pay a royalty for the advancement. Single characters are most difficult to identify but it would seem that the S with the diagonal overstrike tail belongs to a Schilling mechanic. Odd that his serial number sequence appears on the sporting weapon. It is possible that F. Schluter sourced Greifelt for a gesteck/parts kit & had a Schilling mechanic to bring it to a specific state of completion. The left side of the horn triggerguard bow looks odd. Is some of it missing or just an odd configuration?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Rick, I simply looked up who held DRGM 76724, sort of a lesser patent. Found a short note in "Waffenzeitung", Suhl 1897. As such protected designs were usually marked only by the holders and the DRGM was granted to Greifelt, I think he is the maker. No other gunmaker than Greifelt & Co. would have marked this DRGM number on a gun.
Raimey, again you forget about Occam's razor! IMHO the S beside the serial number here stands simply for Schlüter.
BTW, why do you think one of the 60 Schillings standing behind any old "S" on any old gun? There were many more "S" craftsmen active at one time or another in the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis area, among them 11 Sauerbrey, 8 Seeber, 5 Siebelist, 22 Spörer, 5 Scharfenberg, 42 Schlegelmilch, 23 Schlütter, 26 Schmidt, 36 Schneider,15 Schüler, 4 Stadelmann, 19 Sturm and many more "S" family names.

[mike ford]

Rick,
You didn't say how the groove diameter was measured,very often they are quickly measured with a dial caliper.This can(and often does) result in a few thousanths difference between that measurement and one obtained by "slugging" the bore. Since the diameter you reported (.422) and the common diameter of nominal 10.75mm cartridges ( .424-.425") are very close, I'm pretty certain that the cartridge is 10.75x (whatever case length a chambercast shows)R (rimmed).This cartridge will be pretty easy to load for, since bullets can be easily made by sizing normal 44 caliber pistol (or 444 Marlin)bullets.I believe Axel makes bullets ,for a different 10.75 caliber rifle, this way and I do too for my 404 Jeffery( also a 10.75). I prefer cast bullets, which would be appropriate for your rifle, but depending on the condition of a particular barrel, jacketed pistol bullets will be soft enough to use( appropriately sized from .429-.430"). Cases should also be easy. The .465 chamber diameter reported to you is also a little small, and may be the head diameter of the cartridge case instead(chamber dia. is usually .003-.005" larger than case dia.). Depending on length, cases can be made from 8x57R or 7x65R. If the chamber is really .465", 9.3x74R cases are usually a couple thousanths smaller than the two named cases. Cartridges like this were pretty common in old drillings and were avaliable in several different lengths. Somtimes, 444 Marlin cases are reccomended, but being simi-rimmed, may slip behind the extractor. Sometimes, .410 bore brass shells are used and reportedly work pretty well if you can't find other cases( you shouldn't have a problem). If I were you, I would be pretty excited to have this drilling to play with.
In 1977, the headquaters of my regular job was in Stuttgart and I had reason to go there fairly often. I went to the R&G Club a couple times, but usually had other people with me and couldn't stop at the club. Since the club wasn't in North Bavaria, I didn't go there on club business. I suspect other members would enjoy reading about your experiences, as I recall, ya'll hunted under a different agreement( different zone) than we.
Mike

[sakorick]

I slugged the barrel. The bore is .4245 at the throat and .425 at the muzzle. Sounds like a 10.75 to me. I'll measure the chamber after fireforming some brass in the next few days. I use 10-11 grains of Bullseye topped off with cream of Wheat and .22 patch.....bang=exact case dimensions. The triggerguard looks very normal to me.

Mike, I was the Production Control Officer in the 394th TC BN (Aviation Intermediate Maintenance), got promoted to Major in 1977 and transferred to the TAMMC(Theater Army Maintenance Material Center) in Zweibrucken as the Aviation Maintenance Officer for Europe. I hunted locally for Boar and waterfowl, Giessen once for Stag and all over the country for Roe. I was the first American hunter to draw a hunt in the old French sector near Memmingen where I bagged my "sixer". I drew a Chamois and got him near Garmisch. I drew a class 1 stag permit in the Vogelsberg mountains but when I got there they had placed a moratorium on Class 1 animals, and of course I had a magnificent Royal Crown Stag walk right out in front of me.

[mike ford]

Sakorick,
It sounds like you have loading for your drilling pretty well figured out. Which case will you fireform? With the diameters of your barrel, you shouldn't have to invest in or make special sizing dies for cast bullets. Standard 44 sizing dies are avaliable down to .425"( for 44-40) and you would want the bullets .002-.003"larger than groove dia. anyway.You may even be able to use un resized .429"cast bullets, if one will enter a fired case easily, you could use it w/o problems. I suspect you would even be able to use 444 Marlin dies to load with, even if you have to use smaller than .429" cast bullets and for .424-.425" jacketed bullets, by making a new expander or modifying the original one ( I often use this trick to load different cartridges with one set of dies).
It sounds like we would be interested in your German hunting experiences,maybe you could write something up for WAIDMANNSHEIL. I also got my Chamois( a female though) in Garmisch, maybe we struggled up and down the same hills.
It looks like you live pretty near one of our other members, Sharps4590,who has a lot of loading experience with older cartridges. You may find it worthwhile to contact him.
Mike

[sharps4590]

That is a nice old drilling, Rick, congratulations!! It's chambered to an interesting cartridge and one I bet will be fun to play with.....and Mike is too kind, as usual. I doubt any information he gives you can be improved upon. Please post your loading results, if you would. I'm a sponge for learning about these fine old pieces and the cartridges they're chambered to.

If I may ask, where are you in NC Missouri? I don't know how close we are, I'm 8 miles SE of Rolla.

[sakorick]

Hello new friends. For Sharps, I live on my farm in Linn County about 2 miles North of Linneus west side of Hwy5. For Mike, I'm getting closer. It's not a 10.75x65R it's more like a Grundig case possibly a 10.75x 52R. We will all know soon as I ordered some Cerrosafe and then we will know for sure......I know it's kind of cheating, however, at this point I'm done guessing. I'm going to take it over to a friend who has a nice set of easy outs for the broken screw. For ellenbr and axel thanks for your input and to all thanks for sharing your knowledge. That's all the news for now.

[mike ford]

Sakorick,
The 10.75x52R is also a pretty common version and really any thing less than 57mm will be easier, because 57mm rimmed cases seem easier to find(unless you are a brass hound,like I, and brouhgt a "ton"back) than the longer ones. Cerrosafe is not cheating, it's actually essential, when dealing with older rifles. When you get the cerrosafe, you can make a "dummy" of the missing hammer screw, just build up a little dam around it and fill it up with the metal.Don't be concerned if it breaks, it will come right out with a heat gun(if you are afraid of a torch). With a "dummy" you can Id the thread with no problem. I would be very leary of using a "easy out" in trying to remove the broken screw. In my experience, if stuck, small screws like this are likely to expand and get even tighter, breaking the "easy out" and messing up the screw. This is because the hole that must be drilled into the screw has to be almost as large as the screw.First, I would soak it with a good penetrating oil for a week and try to "worry"it out with a prick punch or scribe and small hammer.Con't worry about the scribe point, they are cheap.
Mike