Reichswerke Erfurt 7mm Rifle

[morganp10]

Hello GGCA forum. I'm a new member and joined because of two guns I have inherited. I grew up with guns, like and appreciate them, but am in no way an expert.

Today I'll start with one:

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What I think I know:
- Sporting rifle in 7x57 manufactured by Reichswerke Erfurt (Rw. E)
- Based on 98 Mauser action (which leads to "98" being stamped on many pieces)
- Oigee 4x26 scope, probably manufactured in early 1920's (based on post http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=711308)
- Think I understand the crown over n/b/u markings
- Think this is serial number 1674, as stamped on the bolt handle and on barrel assembly behind the trigger and facing in toward the stock when assembled.

What I don't know and would like to know:
- What the set of stampings/marks mean on the underside of the barrel (covered by the stock when assembled)
- What year this might have been manufactured
- "7792" is stamped in several places (stock, barrel, trigger assembly). Again, i'm thinking the 92 is a reference to the action, but what is the 77? This is definitely a 7x57 chamber/barrel. I'm thinking this is probably an elementary question, but I can't seem to find the answer. Perhaps an abbreviation of 7x57 into "77"?
- What it might be worth (I unfortunately have to sell it).
- How do you adjust the site up/down and left/right (it currently shoots about 3" left at 100 yds...probably hadn't been fired in 10 years till earlier this month).
- Anything of interest anyone would like to tell me about it.

Apparently I'm limited to 5 photos per post, so I'll probably follow on this post with more photos.

Many, many thanks (and hopefully I've posted this in the right place).

[morganp10]

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[algmule]

Hello - and welcome to the forum

I have a rifle like yours only mine is a 8X57IS which I believe was the original chambering on rifles marked RwE. I have however encountered two (RwE) in 6,5X55 Swedish Mauser and one, also 6,5x55, that was marked GwfE. If they were rebarelled here in Sweden I don´t know. My rifle has serial around 4300 (can´t remember exactly and I am too lazy to go and check). Sadly the stock of my RwE rifle is in pretty bad shape but I bought the stock from one of the 6,5x55 - the GwfE - that I came across. That rifle is no longer with us. Scrapped. The stock I bought was a wee bit different than the one that came with my rifle.

My rifle does not have the StmG 10gr marking. If I remember correctly (still too lazy) it´s only marked with RwE and some "military eagle". My rifle also has a second three digit serial on the underside of the receiver. I´ve seen people claiming that RwE manufactured (put together) sporter rifles for export after the armistice November 1918. Can´t verify if this is true, though. I firmly believe that the then Germans took small ring receivers from the arsenal at Erfurt, barelled them in 8x57 and put them in sporter stocks and shipped them. Until someone prove me wrong I hold that the then Germans didn´t manufacture any receivers after the armistice. EDIT: at least not for sporters and not while the "plant" was Reichswerke Erfurt.

There are shotgun conversions marked RwE as well. Based on large ring receivers. These have shell guides/shell retainers/shell deflectors welded/soldered/put there by magic to the receivers. Consequently, these shell guides are NOT an integral part of the receivers. I have two shotgun conversions that clearly prove this.

Thank you for posting as this (the RwE bit) concerns my own research. An image of the buttplate on your rifle would be appreciated. Eventually images of my rifle will turn up if you so wish. My rifle does not have a claw mount. Sadly it´s drilled for weaver bases.

Also: all three rifles in 6,5x55 that I came across - and my 8x57 - had/has the same engravings with very little variation.
Also again: Why do we scrap guns. You lot should try to live in a not fully functional country which also is a member of the European Union.
Another also: GwfE is Gewehrfabrik Erfurt.

And yes, I´m aware I´m annoying.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

morganp10,
The following is from my defective memory of previous answers from Axel and if he addresses this rifle, his answer should be considered correct, if it differs from mine. I think your rifle was made by the Erfurt Arsenal post WW1 in an effort to continue operations through commercial operations. The markings on the flat, behind the recoil lug, are not proofmarks, but are workers marks to show they performed some operation on the rifle( to justify their paycheck). The proofmarks (if present), would be found on the bottom of the barrel( assuming it is the original barrel). The receiver is marked to show it was proofed for a 10 gram steel jacketed bullet, which would be appropriate for a 7x57. I therefore have no reason to think the barrel is not original, other than you didn't show proofmarks. The stock is typical WW1-early post war style, as is the front scopemount plate being dovetailed into the receiver ring. In my often disregarded opinion, it is a nice rifle chambered for a very good caliber( which would not have been restricted under post war rules). I await your posting of proofmarks ( if existing) and Axel's or other learned persons comments.
Mike
I noted algmule(peter) was writing comments while I was- he is one of those "learned persons" I mentioned.
Mike

[algmule]

mike ford,

Thanks, but I don´t consider myself one of the "learned persons". It´s so much more amusing to be annoying so that´s what I like to think I am. In fact, I´ve been known to strive to be annoying from time to time.

Also, I´ve forgotten how to send private messages. Please someone pm me on how to perform this as I believe I know how to receive them.

Also 2: sorry for off-topic.

Kind regards
Peter

[morganp10]

Peter and Mike,

Thanks for the responses. I'm learning.

Here are a few shots of the proof marks.

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Should there be more proof marks than these? Mike you mentioned on the bottom of the barrel; I don't see any markings there. Does this suggest that the barrel may have been replaced? The script font of "7 m/m" on the upper side of the barrel looks, to my untrained eye, perhaps not consistent with the era markings on the rest of the gun:

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Here's a marking on the inside of the stock, which strikes me as original (again from a very amateur viewpoint).

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Thoughts?

Mike and Peter, I'm taking you to mean you think this gun (perhaps excepting the barrel) is likely pre-armistice, with caveats about rumors of subsequent RwE production. Is that right?

Thanks again for the input!

[morganp10]

Ah, and here's a shot of the butt:

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[algmule]

Hello

A few comparisons: the bolt of my rifle does not have the full serial; the serial in the barrel channel on my stock wasn´t stamped but written in (lead) pencil and now it´s not visible due to me having cleaned it. The stock I bought I believe had the serial stamped (sorry, laziness still around but will check tomorrow). Both my stocks have metal butt plates. They are however different.

All the shotgun conversions marked RwE that I´ve had access to and inspected have had the serial stamped in the barrel channel. On another note, my Imman Meffert marked shotgun conversion have the serial in pencil in the barrel channel. How is this conversion related to RwE? It has the welded shell guide as do all RwE marked shotgun conversions and the stock is a sporterized Gewehr 98 stock.

I do believe your rifle has been through changes over time. I would say 1674 is the RwE serial and that 7792 came later. The 92 on the receiver ring probably came when it was re-barelled and so the StmG 10 gr probably also ended up on the receiver.

I paid 56 USD for mine + shipping another 10. The extra stock I bought was 90 USD. Here I believe your scope would be the most expensive part of your kit.

Also: Reichswerke Erfurt existed for a rather short time span. I´ve seen people claiming that the former Königlich Gewehrfabrik was renamed pretty soon after the armistice. I´ve never been able to confirm this. I´ve nothing to back it up with but I believe there was no Reichswerke Erfurt before late August, early September 1919. If someone has a source contradicting my belief there´s no need for alas this and alas that. Simply cough up a source so that I can check for myself. If people are nice and behave I might come back with another one of my beliefs, when RwE ended.

EDIT: no, your rifle was originally put together post-armistice and then it was most certainly put together a second time post-the first "put togethering". Receiver of your rifle is probably pre-armistice. Could we have an image of the bolthandle?

EDIT: last part of the last paragraph is edited out as it wasn´t related to bolthandles. If I put it like this, is the bolthandle flat and checkered on one side? And now I see it´s not. Sorry, my error.

Kind regards
Peter

[morganp10]

Peter, thanks again.

I've looked over the bolt handle carefully and I don't see anything I would describe as "rings". The bolt handle is visible pretty clearly in a couple of the photos I've already sent, but if you're not seeing what you want, perhaps you can explain further or show me a picture of what you're talking about?

Morgan

[mike ford]

morganp10,
My opinion is slightly different than Peter's. I believe the original serial number of the rifle is 1674 as found on the bolt handle and the receiver, albeit in an unusual location on the tang. If there is no 1674( or other number) on the barrel; in my mind this is another indication of rebarreling. If whoever did this work, had several similar rifles to rebarrel at the same time, it is entirely believable that the stock from rifle 7792, could find it's way to rifle 1674. The bolt and receiver(action, system)both show expected proof marks and it is entirely logical to believe the original barrel would have had the same marks, plus the bore diameter and case length with possibly the date of proof. The barrel lacking these marks is the strongest sign that the rifle was rebarreled. It is not possible, now, to know why the barrel was changed. Personal preference, destruction of original barrel, to meet legal requirements, are some; but not all reasons to replace the barrel. It is also my impression that the barrel may have been exchanged somewhere other than Germany. This is largely due to my faith that a German shop would have had the new barrel proofed at the time of the exchange.
Mike

[morganp10]

Again thanks for the input, Mike and Pete.

I'll happily welcome any more information on this gun, but later today I'll provide info in another string on the second gun and welcome help with that one. I *think* that one is more original.

M-

[algmule]

Hello

For comparison. Here are three images of the now scrapped rifle that I mentioned in an earlier post. Originally posted by HuggyBear on forum.robsoft.nu. Although not marked RwE but GwFE it´s at least somewhat semi-topic.

1.jpg
1a.jpg
1b.jpg

By the way, serial on my RwE is 4396.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

....... and here are four images of my RwE rifle (also lifted from forum.robsoft.nu, where I originally posted them). The fourth image shows my RwE rifle in its original stock. The fifth image is a large ring receiver (marked RwE, shotgun conversion).

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1f.jpg
1g.JPG
1h.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

The former "Königliche Gewehrfabrik Erfurt" was renamed "Reichswerke Erfurt" in April 1919. After the so called Versailles Peace Treaty it was reorganized and renamed again to "Deutsche Werke A.G." in early 1922 to avoid confiscation by the allies. To no avail, as the disarmament commission stopped all rifle making and dismounted the facilities September 1922. But lots of left over parts found their way to Suhl and Zella – Mehlis.
This rifle is quite unusual for a RwE made one. All originals I have seen so far are in 8x57IS and proofmarked with the former military acceptance eagle only, visible in one of älgmule's photos, lacking on your example. None of the originals had the civilian BUG + bullet weight proofmarks like your rifle. The 10 gramm = 154 gr bullet weight marking is unusual too. In the early 1920s a 7x57 would have been marked 11 gramm. 10 gramm rather speaks for a 6.5mm cartridge like 6.5x55, more likely 6.5x57 or even 6.5x58P. The most important set of proof marks and numbers ought to be under the barrel proper. These are apparently lacking from your rifle, only the secondary marks on receiver and bolt handle existing. The engraved 7 mm marking of the barrel is very unusual for a German rifle, and the font of "mm" is decidedly not German.
IMHO your rifle was completed in Suhl or Zella- Mehlis, using left over RwE parts, barreled and proofed for some 6.5mm cartridge. This explains the two serial numbers too. Much later, likely 1950s to 60s, it was rebarreled in the USA to 7x57 Mauser. The rebarreling job must have been done outside Europe as it lacks any signs of a mandatory government reproof.

[algmule]

Hello

Wonderful. I now have a source saying April 1919 and another source coming in at October 1919 with me stuck in late August/early September 1919.

Here´s a little about Deutsche Werke:

"Deutsche Werke A.G. Erfurt

Aus der ehemaligen Gewehrfabrik am Mainzerhof wurde 1920 ein Zweigbetrieb der Deutschen Werke. Der größte Teil der Maschinen wurde an die Tschechoslowakei und an Belgien ausgeliefert, wo sie den Grundstock einer eigenen Waffenproduktion bildeten - FN Fabrique Nationale......."

Here´s the source https://deutschewerkekiel.jimdo.com/...utscher-werke/ and you´ll have to scroll down.

Axel, you may have inadvertently put me on an alternative track as regards the rifles marked RwE. I´m grateful. Also: if you should have a source for April 1919 I´d be even more grateful.

There is an RwE marked rifle on DGS and another one on Nitro Express for those that would like to see differences in engravings.

Also: the stock (the original one) on my RwE rifle has an outline (I have temporarilay forgotten the English word for it) around the cheek piece that I haven´t seen on any other rifle stock for RwE marked rifles. EDIT: the outline may be called a beaded cheek piece.

Sorry, forgot: would a 6,5x55 work in a barrel meant for 6,5x57?

Kind regards
Peter