Mauser 7x57 98 Praunsmandtl - Help Identifying proofs, model, & maker.

[Mauser]

Thanks to GGCA as there is a lot of useful information and I am very grateful.

My local FFL had this gun for sale and after seeing it in person I felt the age, engraving, and unique customizing was worth a chance on the investment.

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This is what I know:

Bore 6.97 for 7mm bullets
Military Action Mauser 98
proofed in August 1927 - 8.27

Praunsmandtl Brothers of Ingolstadt

Small ring receiver 1.25 inches
7 7/8 " screw mount spacing on trigger guard
Receiver proof format is post 1912 and later which confirms barrel date.
It is a Herter's Mauser Sport stock recognized by a gunsmith which he found and confirmed in Herter's catalog.

What I would like to know:


1. Is this a true Mauser made action, bolt, and receiver made from a Kar 98 military surplus? What is this action and barrel's model?

2. Is the 3575 model number?

3. What is the MM below the 3575?

4. What is the 282 number on the barrel which I think is the log number when proofed?

5. What is the double proof mark below the 282 on the barrel?

6. What information can be provided on the Praunsmandtl Brothers of Ingolstadt. (Gebr. Praunsmandtl . Ingolstadt).

7. Did Praunsmandtl Brothers customize the gun after its original manufacturing? One member told me Praunsmandtl made shotguns.

8. Can more information be provided on the post WW1 customized rifle since proof was August 1927 was the gun made earlier and redone from a surplus Mauser 98?

9. Was the hexagon / round barrel a special order commercial rifle barrel or was it a normal military made type barrel?

Thank you everyone for your help.

Ed

[mike ford]

ED,
Without having the rifle "in hand", it will be difficult to answer all your questions, and some of my answers may be incorrect, anyway. The rifle seems to have been made in, or near, Zella-Mehlis for marketing by Pranunsmandtl, from a surplus WW1 Kar 98 action ( small ring 98 type action, likely Erfurt). The double mark below the Zella-Mehlis ledger mark( 282) is not a proof mark, rather, I believe it is the commercial barrel maker's mark. I believe the 3575 is the serial number, but without a good look at the receiver, I'm not sure; it's just that such a number would typically be made to match the serial number on the receiver( action, system). The MM, I believe is the mark of the shop that actually put the rifle together. I can't positively ID the shop, but I hope someone else will be able to do so, because I have a drilling with this same mark( plus what seems to be another version of the house mark of this shop). It is pretty obvious that the rifle has been through different gunsmith shops, likely in the US, more than once. From screw holes, it is obvious the rifle has had a receiver sight fitted, and has had a scope mounted. It was already pointed out that it has been restocked. Absent a showing of serial number on the receiver, I think the floorplate, and maybe the entire magazine assy. is from a different rifle. I say this, because the "30" would normally be the last two numbers in the rifles serial number( doesn't match 3575). Furthermore, a rifle such as this would usually have double set triggers and this one doesn't, which is another sign that the magazine assy. might not be original to the rifle. The small engraving is the reason I don't believe it was just put together in the US with a "take off" barrel and Kar 98 military action, in a Herter's stock( plus the bolt handle is not American style), but rather, it started out as a German sporting rifle. I would be interested in other people's opinions.
Mike

[Mauser]

More photos

Thanks for the info. All serial numbers on receiver opinion sanded off with engravings done as receiver proof is legible but worn. Adding a few more pics of receiver pillar and barrels etc.

Thank You

Ed

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[mike ford]

ED,
The additional photos, provide additional info. As it turns out, it seems your rifle at one time had a one piece scope mount base( like Redfield), then later two piece bases were used( maybe Weaver). The marks on the receiver ring indicate rifle nitro proof, for a 9.8 gram steel jacketed bullet. The marks on the flat, behind the recoil lug, are not actually proof marks. Instead, they are workers marks that Id who worked on the rifle; but there is no known list of these workers, with their mark. The 73 on a couple parts is another indicator that the original serial might have been something other than 3575. The nominal caliber of the rifle has not been discussed. We know the bore diameter fits one of the nominal 7mms, have you determined which it is? Axel has indicated a 7x57 of this age would most commonly be for an 11 gram bullet, have you determined yours is 7x64?
Mike

[Axel E]

The rifle was built on a military small ring 98AZ carbine action, action made by Erfurt arsenal in WW1. The Workers marks under the receiver were Erfurt factory internals and identified workers who did individual machining steps. Now they are undecodable. The Magazine box with the large, rear mounted triggerguard comes from a large ring Gewehr 98 also of WW1 vintage. The crowned gothic letters are German imperial military inspector's marks. Such combinations of a light ex-military small ring receiver and a Gewehr 98 magazine box were poular for building sporting rifles during the interwar years as it was difficult to fit a double set trigger into the small carbine triggerguard.
Such half – octagonal, integral ribbed barrels were common on upgrade sporters before WW2. They were pure civilian barrels, never used on military arms. Nowadays there are very few barrelmakers able and/or willing to make such barrels. consequently such barrels are very rare and expensive now. This barrel was made by MM = Max Moeller, Forstgasse, Zella – Mehlis, a well known barrel maker. His mark is on many fine Schützen rifle barrels too. I know, but I can not identify that double mark on the barrel. I have seen it on both bolt actions , Schützen rifles and break open combinations, single on break opens, double on single barrels. As it is found on guns signed by several Zella – Mehlis and Suhl makers, I suspect it to be od an unknown outworking specialist who fitted the barrels to the actions, chambered and headspaced them. As the CROWN – crown/N proofmarks and the 282 proofhouse ledger number show, it was proofed August 1927 by the Zella – Mehlis proofhouse, still using the special "4000 atm" proof powder. Though 7x57s were then usually proofed for an 11 gramm bullet, the Z-M proofhouse then proofed rifles for any factory load the maker specified.
The rifle was merely retailed by the Praunsmändtl brothers at Ludwigstrasse 26, Ingolstadt, Bavaria. An Wilhelm Praunsmändtl founded the company as a gun-, bicycle- and motorcycle shop. Emil P. was mentioned there in1906, but by 1916 it was Gebrueder P. Today the Peter Praunsmändtl GmbH is a pure car dealer with many branches in Bavaria, see
http://www.mercedes-benz-praunsmaend...s/company.html
Here you may see what their shop looked like just before WW2.

[Mauser]

Awesome information. Thank you.

This rifle came from an estate sale which my local FFL listed all the items on Gunbroker. My FFL showed it to me while in his store . My collection is almost exclusively on semi auto pistols but I was glad he showed it to me because I would have never known about it. My first impression of the stock was correct which I felt it appeared to be a 1950s / 1960s style stock which my uncle had exposed to me certain rifles, and shotguns with similar look and design features. But, when you see the rust blue finish on the barrel with the engraved receiver and very polished and smooth bolt action, I knew the rifle was worth taking a chance. Not to mention, that no one knew the caliber as the auction clock was ticking because the stock and barrel would not separate in the store. Some of us felt the recoil lug in the stock, hidden by the inlay covering might have been holding the two pieces together. Since the rifle was being auctioned it seemed the right thing was to leave it alone without risk of damaging it. I knew from measuring the barrel it was 7mm caliber and the most probable possible cartridges seemed easy to come by so I decided to bid on the GB auction as there would be no shipping charges or an FFL fee that gave some leeway in bidding.

After I won the auction and picked up the gun, I wanted nothing more than to get the stock and barrel apart. Turned out which there was absolutely no way of knowing, the spring release on the magazine box had been pinned so it still would move but it had been "faked" as the cover was permanently secured to the box. Once I knew the magazine well and box were in no way securing the barrel and stock, I used a lot more force since I now owned it and with a good pop sound, the barrel and stock separated. In all likelihood, the stock's finish had probably cured to the barrel. Later on I will try to figure out the stock's finish but I suspect someone has overlaid a lacquer coat on original linseed finish to spruce up the finish.

I did not see the need to cast the bore because with some back ward engineering and using various brass cartridges such as 270 and 243 Winchester which will drop in partially then measuring the diameter where it stopped on the brass I narrowed the cartridge down to 7x64 Brenneke and 7x57 Mauser. Then with the bolt out and using a cleaning rod I measured the stopping distance from where the rod touches the lands to where it touches the start of the chamber. Unfortunately, I eyeballed a reference point to gauge the distance and came up with a length that told me 7x64 Brenneke but once I got the ammo I realized I had eyeballed wrong. When I measured again, it was with a taped reference point on the gun and a scratched notch on the rod the case length which the length indicated the only possible cartridge was the 7x57 Mauser. On my initial post, I forgot to list that the 7x57 Mauser was the caliber so my bad on the initial oversight.

I did find the present Praunsmandtl in Ingoldstadt Germany and suspected they may been related. Also another member had a post with Praunsmandtl name in it so I knew that information was potentially out there but very difficult to come across here in the USA today. The receiver is currently drilled for Weaver mounts which I have with the rifle, but it also appears to have been drilled with another mount spacing, then the holes plugged and concealed with the circular engraving pattern that is visible. The receiver drilling for the present holes is post engraving which the holes disrupt the pattern. I have spoken to my FFL and we are planning to visit the family that sold the rifle from the estate and I hope to learn more about the rifle's history.

I am not certain how the Herter's stock was chosen either here or in Germany, but Herter's does boast in the ad about it being used by German gun clubs (see photo). It is possible the family may have an earlier stock still in their possession. I will be buying a couple vintage Herter's catalog as I now noticed my quick photograph of the page also has the models listed. Impressively, the stock is fitted very well, and the hex pattern in the stock is sharp with clean straight lines. It appears to have come factory fitted but I will do a closer examination of the wood work later on to get a better idea. Does anyone know if these Herter's stock came already finished and / or factory fitted? The diamond and circle inlay and red plate banding are obvious custom touches.

This is my first Mauser, and after confirming the caliber and firing a few shots at the range without sights or scope, I am pretty certain this is a very good rifle. The action is smooth and its impressive being able to see the spent cartridge come back perfectly centered in the ejector hook while suspended straight in line as the bolt moves backward. I am looking forward to getting a scope on it. There was very little to any perceivable recoil comparing it to the recoil of my 700 Remington 270 Winchester. Also, in regards to the barrel and its use, the rifling is very clean and sharp down its entire length. Also, there is a vast difference between the exposed bluing on the barrel above the stock and area covered by the stock including the magazine box as the covered areas the bluing looks brand new.

I appreciate all the help.

Thank you

Ed

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[Mauser]

Photo of the front of receiver holes plugged and hidden.

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[Axel E]

Ed, Max Moeller was a barrelmaker predominantly. His barrels were used by many gunmakers in the Z-M area. So the MM mark on the barrel does not say he put the rifle together. The gunmaker simply used a MM barrel, just as custom gunmakers today use barrels by Douglas, Krieger, Shilen or Lothar Walther.
The Herters stock was not put on in Germany by Germans for German use. The "Rod and Gun Clubs in Germany" mentioned in the Herters ad were not German, but American clubs of the US forces in Germany. They had their own lines of supplying American products to American GIs, generally inaccesible to Germans.

[Mauser]

Thanks Axel.

You have answered all the unknowns.

I do appreciate your knowledge and sharing it. I enjoyed the web link about Gebr. Praunsmandtl. I had found the car companies website but not the page you sent. Just awesome in my opinion. Similarly, I bought a unique looking 22 LR at Cabelas in supper great shape only branded a Shapleigh King Nitro which was a first production Savage 7 (one patent barrel verse later ones having four). Shapleigh was a St. Louis retail type department very much like Gebr. Praunsmandtl. So, it is a blast learning and attaching the history to these guns.

Hopefully, I can learn some details meeting the prior owners family in the next few days. I will be sure to post it afterwards.

Again, thank you.

Ed