A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

[buckstix]

A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

I didn't know a lot about this one other than I like the way it looked.

I though it had a miss-matched Bolt, but found that number on the Action also.

I assume this is between the Wars, but not sure of year of mfg.

Here are the specs..

21" Octagon to Round Barrel, Full Matt Rib to Ramp Front Site w/ Silver Bead
Lyman 35 Rear Site - (orig rear site on rib is milled down)
7 lb 6 oz
14" LOP
Type B Floor Plate Lever
Double-Set Triggers
Barrel Rib marked "Mod Mauser: J.P. Sauer & Son"
Barrel side marked "30 U.S.G.1906"
Barrel shank marked "Fluid Steel Krupp Essen"
Barrel marked "Crown N STMG / 10G"
Action and Barrel marked "182644"
Action marked "44580"
All Bolt parts marked "80"
blank brass escutcheon on bottom of stock
Braided Sling


UPDATE ... I FOUND AN IDENTICAL RIFLE HERE - SAME FRONT SITE AND LYMAN 35 SITE - https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...c&lctid=509172


as always comments and opinions are welcome ....

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER-06-000.jpg

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Does the magazine have the number 44580 on the back?
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello Mike, Yes the number is also on the back of the mag box. (see updated picture) There is also a matching "80" on the inside of the floor plate.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
OK, that means the action is a Mauser commercial one and therefore pre-war or less likely wartime. After the Great War, there were many Mod.98 Mauser rifles surplus to military needs and expensive Mauser commercial (patents were still in force) actions were not necessary to make sporting rifles. Since it is chambered to 30-06 it was made after then and since bore diameter and case length are shown in mm it was made after 1911. Since the war started in 1914 for the Germans, it is likely that it was made before 1915. You will also find that the double set triggers are built into the trigger guard rather than as an assembly set and pinned into the trigger guard, as the rifles built from surplus Military usually are. There are lists showing when Mauser commercial actions were made, which may or may not fit the time frame mentioned above, due to delays in production. I didn't take the time to find the list and look up the Mauser number (44580).
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

If 182644 is a serial from JPS&S it would point to sometime around 1912-13. The Oberndorf serial Mike points out, sometime around 1911-1912. I could well be wrong. It happens. I accept it. I find it interesting that the barrel wears JPS&S's trademark. Maybe someone can inform me as to whether the trademark on the barrel points to the barrel being a JPS&S in-house barrel. If so, I will be pleased as it means I can expand my barrel manufacturing/barrel fiddling thread.

Peter

[buckstix]

Hello Mike & Peter, thank you for the info ....

I got this information from Kuduae on a different forum.

".... The barrel was proofed for the 10 gramm = 150 gr .30-06 load.
44580 is the Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number.
The position under the receiver shows the action only was intended for sale to another gunmaker, Sauer & Sohn here. It dates the action to 1911.
The Sauer & Sohn serial number 182644 shows the rifle was completed, barreled and stocked in 1912.
The sling is a recent, post-WW2 addition....."


I would never have guessed that this rifle was 112 years old ... wow ! .. it sure survived very well. Its virtually "mint".

I would like to know if these are rare, or just uncommon? I've never seen a JP Sauer gun before this one.

[Axel E]

Transferred my last comment from the nitroexpress forum:

Are these rare, or just uncommon? I've never seen a JP Sauer gun.

Prewar Sauer & Sohn, Suhl Mausers are rare, but not really uncommon. Survival rate in Germany is quite low due to the disarmament of German hunters at the end of WW2. But as these S&S Mausers were highly regarded for their shape and quality, some surface from time to time.

Perhaps a Model B?

Great little rifle, plenty of case hardening showing!

Calling a pre-WW1 Mauser a “model B” is akin to calling a Colt Navy a Peacemaker. The model designations A, B, E, S and M were created by Mauser post-WW1, in 1922. So they do not apply to pre-WW1 Mauser sporters, let alone the differently shaped pre-1912 ones. In no way it applies to rifles built by others on Mauser actions. Nobody calls a Rigby Mauser a “Mauser Modell A”, though it was made lock, stock and barrel at the Mauser, Oberndorf factory, merely finished by Rigby.
Many design details now deemed typical for the interwar years Mauser rifles were in fact developed by Sauer& Sohn long before WW1 and incorporated into the Mauser offerings only later. Such are the lever release floorplate, the Schnabel foreend tip and ribbed half-octagon barrels. Here is a photo of the earlist Sauer & Sohn Mauser sporter I have seen, maybe the first such rifle:

[img]https://up.picr.de/47404264xg.jpg[/img]

This rifle in 8x57 is built on an early transitional action as used in the 1896-97 German military trials. The action shows some features of the 98 action soon to come. It already has the gas flange on bolt shroud and the third, safety locking lug, but is still cock on closing. The Mauser commercial serial number under receiver, rear magazine wall and small parts is 17! Som the completed rifle is datable to pre-1899.

[buckstix]

a very nice rifle

[buckstix]

With my new found awareness of J.P. Sauer & Sohn Sporting rifles, I just purchased another in 8x57 caliber. It is much more used than this 30-06, but looks interesting. It has strange bases for a scope that I have never seen before. Maybe someone will recognize the scope bases.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER8X57-000.jpg



Well, I got the rifle in hand today. It is cock on close and there is a little finger that helps hold the bolt handle down. (see third picture from the end) This one has stamps and numbers all over the place - I have shown all that I found. I will be happy to hear what they all mean. The stock looks as old as the rifle but not like the one on the 30-06. I have slugged the bore and its .318 dia. Here are all the photos of the markings. Do you think I could find a scope with the required mounting for this rifle?

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/8x57sauer-000.jpg

[Axel E]

Congratulation, Buckstix you caught a very rare bird here. All Transition pre-98 Mauser actions are rare, but the cock-on -closing type is the rarest among the rare. Most transition actions seen are cock-on-opening with narrow gas escape holes in the bolt body. When I met Lud Olson years ago, he had seen such an action only once on an experimental military rifle at the Aberdeen Prooving Ground collection. Later, Jon Speed was not aware such actions existed and published photos of # 17’s bolt on page 25 of his “Archive” book.
Mauser, Oberndorf numbered all their commercial production in one sequence, regardless of action size, complete rifles of any type or actions only. Up to 1945 total production ran up about 126500. Up to about 1901 you find left over Transition actions mixed in with the various full blown 98 actions, but most are of the less uncommon cock-on-opening version. So I guess less than 100 of your type were ever sold commercially.
Your action already shows the typical Mauser set trigger, built into the special lower tang without a separate housing. The lever release floorplate and the bolt hold down spring finger are Sauer add-ons. You can make out that finger ahead of the bolthandle in the photo I posted above.
The Mauser commercial serial number is 27, while the Sauer & Sohn number is 76838.
The rifle was proofed in Suhl for the 1900 standard 8x57I load, 2.75 gram = 42 gr GBP = rifle flake powder and a 227 gr steel jacket bullet. Proofing was done by using the smokeless “4000 atm Special Proof Powder”, shown by the CROWN – crown/N marks. The bore diameter is given with the gauge number 172.28. The “Wilde Mann” was a Sauer & Sohn quality- and trademark.
The Prussian miltary acceptance eagle on the top right barrel flat shows the rifle volunteered/served as a stop-gap sniper rifle in 1915 – 16, see Waidmannsheil! # 47. Perhaps the original stock was damaged in the trenches and the rifle had to be restocked after the great war. The pencil script in the stock seems to be German. After 1916 the rare scopes were most often removed from these militarized sporting rifles and remounted on Gewehr 98 military sniper rifles. Finding rings to fit the old inline Sauer claw bases is about as likely as cracking a lottery jackpot. These mounts are out of print for more than 100 years by now. They were handmade anyhow. Myself, I have never seen such a mount. A really good German gunsmith may take some raw claw scope rings from EAW and mill and file the corresponding hooks, but it will probably be more expensive than a new rifle.

[buckstix]

Hello Axel E,
Thank you very much for such a detailed history about this rifle. I will try to fabricate scope rings to fit so I can add the period scope from the 7mm rifle posted earlier.

https://www.germanguns.com/vb5/forum...scope-markings

[algmule]

Hello




Note that the dates given in the images are application dates.

Off-topic:

This one I have never seen on any JPS&S barrels. I do seem to remember I have seen it as trademark for some other company but cannot recall which one. I may well remember incorrectly. It happens and I blame age. Information on this trademark as regards JPS&S would be very welcome. it was after all registered in the register for trademarks.

Peter

[buckstix]

.....Finding rings to fit the old inline Sauer claw bases is about as likely as cracking a lottery jackpot. These mounts are out of print for more than 100 years by now. They were handmade anyhow. Myself, I have never seen such a mount. .....

Hello Axell,

Here's an update on the 8x57 Sauer.

Well, I didn't crack the lottery jackpot, but thanks to fellow forum member he sold me this scope for my rifle. He said he bought it years ago because he recognized the rings as rare early JP Sauer type. Unfortunately the scope has been abused with a cracked lens, and crooked cross-hairs, and it is so cloudy that you can't see through it, but it sure makes he file look great. I am not sure it can be repaired, so I might just look for a different scope to put into the rings.

Perhaps you can tell me something about the scope's maker.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpi...7sauer-scope-000.jpg

8x57sauer-scope-000.jpg

[Axel E]

Hello Axel,

Perhaps you can tell me something about the scope.

This 30 mm tube diameter „Certar 4 ? x” is one of the first generation of German rifle scopes. I found it advertised first in 1900. By 1910 it had disappeared from catalogs and ads already. As Goerz became an AG in 1904, this scope was probably made 1900 – 1904.
The maker, the C.P.Goerz of Berlin, was founded by Carl Paul Goerz, 1854 – 1923. At the time of WW1 they were the largest optics maker worldwide. They offered all kinds of optical articles, from cameras and science apparatus to artillery sights and the superior rangefinders of the navy. Making military supplies only during the Great War, Goerz was in troubles under the conditions of Versailles. In 1926 they amalgamated with Zeiss, Jena. The Berlin factories were taken over by the soviets in 1945 and all equipment, including personnel, transported to Russia.

[Axel E]

Hello Axel,

Perhaps you can tell me something about the scope.

This 30 mm tube diameter „Certar 4 ? x” is one of the first generation of German rifle scopes. I found it advertised first in 1900. By 1910 it had disappeared from catalogs and ads already. As Goerz became an AG in 1904, this scope was probably made 1900 – 1904.
The maker, the C.P.Goerz of Berlin, was founded by Carl Paul Goerz, 1854 – 1923. At the time of WW1 they were the largest optics maker worldwide. They offered all kinds of optical articles, from cameras and science apparatus to artillery sights and the superior rangefinders of the navy. Making military supplies only during the Great War, Goerz was in troubles under the conditions of Versailles. In 1926 they amalgamated with Zeiss, Jena. The Berlin factories were taken over by the soviets in 1945 and all equipment, including personnel, transported to Russia.