8.15 x 46R for Schuetzen

[Diz]

I am looking for a little help and I’m sure this might have been covered before but I have zero experience with Schuetzen rifles and most of the cartridges. Lately I have been thinking about acquiring a Schuetzen rifle and almost every one that I have looked at is in 8.15x46R caliber. Either it is the most popular cartridge or very, very accurate or both. I know it can be formed from 30-30 but is it really the one to have? Is there something better? Is there a best action or maker? All thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
Schuetzen rifles are not really my thing, so you might want to take this with a grain of salt. Many of the older schuetzen cartridges are very interesting and fun to play with, but 8.15x46R is in my opinion is the best one to have, if you are going to shoot in the schuetzen matches.Factory cases(and ammo) were avaliable from RWS not too long ago and some may be found, if you look hard enough.Cases are very easy to make from 30-30 cases.They can also be made from others, but 30-30 is easier and more avaliable.There were actually different versions, all very similar, but the important difference usually is found in the rim. We often use American cases for German cases with a difference in headsize( ie 25-06 vs 5.6x61vH), but 30-30 has the same headsize as 8.15x46R, within a small tolerance. In some rifles, the 30-30 rim can be used "as is", in others the diameter must be reduced; and in still others, both rim diameter and thickness must be reduced.What needs to be done will be clear in the begining, except maybe in Martini type rifles. One such rifle I know of was striking the primers very low, almost at the edge. Reducing the thickness of the rims allowed the breech block rise enough for the problem to be corrected.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I too have the hots for a Scheutzen rifle and that's the cartridge I would want it in. Mike knows infinitely more about the ins and outs than I do, reference the cartridge, but I do have an Ideal action in 8.15 X 46R. Case forming was a snap from 30 WCF brass. Resizing was all that was required, did not have to thin the rim. It is accurate with any cast load I've tried and it's a pleasant cartridge to shoot.

[Diz]

Mike & Sharps,

I like this forum because you get very little BS. I think ease of forming is a plus for this caliber but can it be really accurate? I know that sounds a little funny but accurate is open to a lot of interpretation. I'm talking at or less than a MOA at least. I know that some of our old time American made target rifles could do that or better back in the late 1800's but a Pope-Ballard and such is way out of reach. I know a lot of tricks for getting them to work but you usually have to start with something inherently accurate to really get something in the end. I know it's not just the cartridge but I think it helps.

Also, I see a lot of Martini actions and I am fairly knowledgeable on them as I presently own four in various calibers but no Scheutzen style. The other action that seems very common is the Aydt but I know nothing about these. Like I said all comments are welcome.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Accuracy is certainly open to interpretation. The little Bartles stalking rifle on an Ideal action that I have isn't what one would consider a target rifle. The barrel is long...can't remember how long but long....and thin, light, going from octagon to round. The forearm is pinned to the barrel with a barrel key. Sights are Express type with the typical U-notch and front bead so it isn't exactly set up for precision shooting as a Scheutzen would be. From a rest at 50 yards with a bullet cast of 50/50, lead/lino, gas checked weighing 170 grs., give or take a few, (I forget..), and 12 grs. of SR-4759 or....I think 15 grs. of Re-7...it will cut cloverleafs. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I've not benched it on paper at 100 yards but I can whack a 6 inch steel gong just about every time offhand at that distance. It's also pure death on rocks sitting on stumps at various distances......and just one heck of a lot of fun.

Just about everyone knows more about the Martini action and its derivatives than I do. It's purely a matter of taste, I believe, but I would prefer the Aydt or another Ideal action dressed up as a Scheutzen.

[mike ford]

Diz,
A couple years ago,there were some articles about Scheutzen rifles in WAIDMANNSHEIL, in one if them, the author said the Aydt was the most common type action.In another article, the same author said the Martini type is the most common.I guess this means both types are very common. There are Scheutzen rifles that were built on other action types, including real falling block types(the Aydt being a swinging block instead).Because the 8.15x46R is a low pressure cartridge, all these different action types can be perfectly adequate for Scheutzen rifles. The individual rifle's construction, condition, and barrel quality are more important to accuracy than action type.Fortunately, since the Scheutzen game is so demanding, the original owner of virtually all these rifles took very good care of them(this is why so many are missing the sights, they were usually removed and carefully boxed up for safe keeping).The Schuetzen game is fired offhand, unsupported, at 100 and 200 meters. I can hardly stand unsupported, so this is why I said these rifles aren't "my thing". On the other hand, those rifles intended for hunting or hunter's competion, are another story altogether. The little rifles like Sharps4590's Bartle are a joy and a lot of fun to use and load for. Unfortunately, many of these have been rebored,relined, or rebarreled to other calibers.Unless converted to a dangerous caliber, or poorly done,they can be used as they are.Any that haven't been altered should be preserved, at all cost.This is only one man's opinion, I know there are others.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I understand about the condition and construction, barrel etc. but if you have a so so cartridge the best of everything else will only equal so so performance and that's what my question is about. Some cartridges are inherently accurate but as I admitted I know little about this one and Scheutzen in general. However, your comments about hunter's competition are well taken and that may be a better game for me. It appears that I haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
It's pretty hard to imagine how the 8.15x46R could have been so popular for so long, if it wasn't inherently accurate.Since the shooting was all standing w/o support, it's also easy to see that personal factors and equipment problems could affect the score more than the cartridges.In different games, the cartridge may have to contribute more. For many years, the .222 was THE cartridge for bench rest and was thought to be almost invincible, until Ferris Pindle and his buddy Lou started playing around with that obscure Russion cartridge.I know people now that would buy a .222 because it's "cool" to shoot a caliber,none of their friends have heard of. And yet the .222Rem. is not one bit less accurate or effective than it was in it's hayday. Somebody asked me, the other week;" what is PPC?", so I guess everything changes. If you want to compete in German style hunter's competition, I suspect you will have to organize it yourself. I suspect you can find a lot of people to participate, and the effort will be rewarding. I suspect Jon Spenser and Axel would be happy to help with findings the rules. I would suggest adopting the rules "as is", there are already enough American/Mexican games, where "gamers" take over.
Mike

[Axel E]

Diz, the 8.15x46R was also called the "Deutsche Schützenhülse" = German target shooter's cartridge in old catalogs. GGCA member Bernd Kellner, together with Anderhub and Techel, wrote a whole 208 page book (in German) on it's history and use. Developed 1890 by gunmaker Adolf F.T. Frohn, Stadelstrasse 20, Suhl, it became THE German Schützen target cartridge from 1895 on, setting new accuracy standards. After 1900 it practically replaced all other target cartridge designs. Originally loaded with black powder, it was loaded with smokeless from about 1905 on. pre-packed powder charges and factory swaged lead bullets for reloading were in common use from 1910 on. If you ever find a post-1900 German cf target rifle in another chambering, it will be a freak. Many of the older rifles were rebarreled to 8.15x46R after 1900.
Target loads all the time used lead bullets in the 120 to 170 gr range, available then in many diameters, .317 - .324", to match individual barrels and preferences. Muzzle velocities of the Target loads usually was about 1300 - 1500 fps. Standard shooting ranges were not 100 and 200 meters, but markedly longer 175 and 300 meters, 191 and 328 yards.
A factory hunting load for small game up to roebuck was available too. This 8.15x46R load featured a copper jacket Tesco type 151 gr bullet, smokeless powder, mv 1923 fps. This load was not more accurate and not allowed at Schützen target ranges.
All the various Schützen rifle actions were strong enough for the 8.15x46R target cartridge. They were selected by target shooters not for strength, but for convenience and economy, as all were about as accurate.
The lowest grade actions were the simplified M71 bolt actions, as made in numbers by the Zella-Mehlis guntrade. These were rated as slightly less accurate because of slower lock time and the one sided lockup by the bolthandle root.
Next up the ladder were the various "Martini" type actions. Most of these are not really "Martinis", as they use lockworks other than Martinis improvement of Peabody's tilting block action, the coil spring powered striker. Such actions were most popular early on, but had some disadvantages to Schützen eyes. Unless being of Kessler's modification or built as take downs, barrels could not be cleaned from the breech end. Further, access to the chamber is limited by the high action sidewalls, requiring loading from the very top, with space for one finger only.
Soon the various swinging and falling block actions like the Aydt, Büchel, Tanner and so on became the most popular. As their breechblocks disappeared in the action, below the barrel, these could be cleaned from the breech end without disassembling the breech block. Also, the chamber was accessible from the sides too, even for clumsy hands, to push in or remove stubborn cases.

[Diz]

Axel,

Thank you for weighing in on this post. I can see now why this cartridge is THE one for target shooting. One doesn't becomes so popular for no reason but unless you know the reason for it you can only speculate. Since accuracy is my primary concern with this information I don't think there is anything to worry about in that area.

The Martini has it's drawbacks as you mention and not being able to clean from the breech end is certainly one of them. All my Martini's have single triggers and they can be made fairly crisp with work but not close to a double set type. My 577-450 has an un-named target brass scope of about 4X on it and it is a real pain to load and unload. A photo is attached. The adjuster is for elevation only and windage requires bending the scope!
Martini - Gibbs.jpg
So I think that I will look for something in a falling block action and see what I can find.

Thanks again, Diz

[Axel E]

One more old hint quoted in Kellner's book: When selecting a lead bullet for the 8.15x46R, don't merely match it to the individdual groove diameter of your barrel. Measure the rifling twist length also. Barrels were made with different twist rates too. As a rule of thumb old bullet catalogs stated: Barrels with a twist shorter than one turn in 12" were made to use all bullets up to 170 gr, but barrels with longer twist rates were suitable for bullets lighter than 150 gr only.

[Diz]

Axel,

A very good point that rate of twist is often overlooked when purchasing a rifle. My 12.7 x 44R is one turn in 27.75" while my vom Hofe is one in 6.25. The 12.7 shoots light for caliber bullets better than heavy and the vH likes heavy for caliber rather than light. It is funny because I often bring a cleaning rod and patches to clean the bore of a prospective purchase along with a bore light but almost never bring a tape measure to check rate of twist. I'm going to a local show this weekend to look for a Schuetzen rifle and I will most certainly take a tape to measure the twist of any candidate I may find. There is much to know and learn in this game and the small details are very important. Thanks for reminding me.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Axel,
Were the barrels with slow twist(longer than 1 in 12)mostly in rifles intended for the 151gr FN jacketed bullets, such as hunting rifles,hunters competition rifles,etc.?
Mike

[sharps4590]

That is information good to know. I couldn't remember if I'd ever checked mine but have now. It's 1-10 3/4.

Mike, haven't you said 32 Win. Spl. bullets could often be used in the 8.15?

[Axel E]

Were the barrels with slow twist(longer than 1 in 12)mostly in rifles intended for the 151gr FN jacketed bullets, such as hunting rifles,hunters competition rifles,

No, The hints were for lead bullet target rifles only. No Schuetzen target rifle was ever built to use any jacketed bullet. Long twist barrels were built for the shorter 175 m range, as light , about 140 gr bullets were mostly used as they produced even less recoil and were cheaper. Lead bullet prices depended for a good part on the weight of lead consumed in making them. As time progressed and Keilerbüchsen and light "Tell type" break open hunting rifles came into common use, these were usually with short twist barrels. Jacketed bullets were not allowed at Schuetzen target ranges. Even the Tesco/Collath gas checked ones (not to be confused with the Tesco copper jacketed ones) were disputed and not allowed at all ranges and competitons.