8.15 x 46R again

[Diz]

I am still contemplating buying a Schuetzen rifle and now have one in mind. Previously I asked about the suitability of the 8.15 x 46R cartridge and found it is THE one for these rifles. Now my question regards the CIP maximum pressure for the 8.15 x 46R. My QL program lists the CIP maximum at only 1650 bar (23931 psi). I think this is originally a black powder cartridge but this seems rather low. Can anyone verify the actual PMax?

Thanks, Diz

[Fred]

Actually, the cartridge was introduced to accommodate the new smokeless powder. I don't have at hand the max pressure but if you are shooting, as you should, plain based lead bullets (the rules) at less than 1400 fps, you won't have any pressure problems. I use around 13 grains of 4227. Go forth and prosper.

[Diz]

Fred,

Thanks for your input and reference to the rules but I am asking more to verify the only data regarding the CIP max that I have. It seems even more questionable since you are saying this cartridge has a smokeless origin. I have had excellent results using 4227 in other cartridges as suspect that your suggestion is a very good one. I would just like to know the number for sure not that I want to load to it but rather to keep safely away.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
I think Axel discussed this in a previous thread, you might do a search, using his name and 8.15x46R. He usually cites the CIP max pressures, under the current system. What I have is under old the old system( CUP).
Mike

[Axel E]

Fred, sorry, but you are wrong here. The 8.15x46R was brought out by the Suhl gunmaker Adolf Frohn in 1890 as a pure blackpowder, lead bullet target cartridge. German Schuetzen rules prescribed the use of lead bullets, without any sort of jacket, all the time. The cartridge was loaded for accuracy out to 300 meters, at known ranges. Flat trajectory never was important when used in target shooting. When people wanted to load the cases with the smokeless powders then availble, case capacity turned out to be too excessive and lead bullets too soft. So f.i. Teschner developed cases with reduced internal capcity and gas checked bullets for use with smokeless powder. The gas checks were soon outlawed again for target matches, but suitable smokeless powders were developed before WW1. Meanwhile the German hunters associations had adopted the mild, cheap to reload cartrridge for their own matches, as most ranges did not allow the use of jacketed bullets. Hunter's rules did not allow the use of full blown target rifles with peep sights and exaggerated stocks, so "Keilerbüchsen", target rifles stocked like hunting rifles, were made. Also many cheaper break open hunting rifles were chambered for the 8.15x46R. Hunters also wanted to use these rifles for hunting roe deer and wanted a bit more energy and flatter trajectory. The ammo companies now had a problem: As target rifles differed considerably in strength, rifling dimensions and twist rate (nothing was standardized then), collath developed the Tesco copper jacketed bullets with a short bearing surface for hunting use, adopted by both RWS and DWM for their hunting loads. The German ammo companies now faced the same problem the American ones have with the .45-70. Due to the diferrent action strengths and bore dimensions of the existing rifles they kept pressures down.Finally, a new German proof law became effective in 1940. Only then maximum pressures became mandatory. In the interest of the existing rifles the new max service pressures, all guns had to be proofed for, the authorities simply took the highest pressure loads then made by either DWM or RWS for a specific cartridge and set up that pressure as the future maximum. The CIP maximum pressures are essentially these German 1940 pressures, merely converted from copper crusher atmospheres or kg/cm² units to electric transducer bar. Then RWS and DWM offered these 8.15x46R factory loads:
139 gr Tesco copper jacket flat nose, 11.6 gr Rottweil Pistol powder, for 1365 fps, pressure 1050 kg/cm²
139 gr Tesco, 28 gr R5 (Rottweil #5), for 1919 fps, 1400 kg/cm²
170 gr hard lead, 12.3 gr Troisd.target powder 1912, 1493 fps, 1500 kg/cm²
142 gr lead, 31 gr black powder, 1529 fps, 1500 kg/cm²
So in 1940 1500 kg/cm² or at copper crusher was established as the future maximum service pressure for the 8.15x46R. So the CIP max pressure is indeed 1650 bar.

[sharps4590]

Would it be safe to assume that most Schuetzen cartridges based on the 8.15 X 46R would operate at approximately the same max pressure, given they were chambered in the same type action?

[Axel E]

Would it be safe to assume that most Schuetzen cartridges based on the 8.15 X 46R would operate at approximately the same max pressure, given they were chambered in the same type action?

As all the other Schuetzen cartridges were pure black powder numbers, the 8.15x46R being the only one that made the transition to factory "nitro for black" loads, all were designed with bp pressures. That is not the same as "all rifles were designed for these low pressures". Many of the Martini and falling block Actions were also used with much more powerfull hunting rifle cartridges. The max pressures were only set up to make any factory load safe for use in any old rifle with a weak action and odd bore dimensions that once barely passed proof for the black powder pressures. As a handloader you are on your own anyhow. You can not blame or sue anyone if you blow up a gun with handloads, pressure tested or not. Remeber the .45-70 again: Saami and CIP pressures are both low to make them safe even if someone stuffs them into an 1870s trapdoor Springfield. No factory dares to sell .45-70 loads that exceed these pressures. But American handloading literature is full of much more powerfull loads for use in stronger actions up to "Ruger Nr.1 only" pressure levels. Marlin and Hornady designed the .450 Marlin only to be able to offer the same ballistics handloaders had long achieved with 45-70 cases in Marlin rifles. But in Europe it is somewhat illegal to professionally recommend loads that exceed CIP max pressures. So QL adheres to the CIP Maximum.

[sharps4590]

I understand the difference in action strength which was why I differentiated as "given they were chambered in the same type action". I did not know the 8.15 began life as a BP cartridge. Obviously somewhere along the line I missed that. Lord have mercy, am I familiar with the 45-70 and its different actions and case lengths....I started loading for my first 45-70 in the mid 1970's and have loaded for all lengths but the 45-2 7/8 case. I feel like Paul Matthews book....."40 Years With the 45-70"....lol

[Diz]

Axel,

Thank you for coming in and the wealth of information regarding this cartridge. You have answered my question and more. Thanks again.

Mike,

I didn't realize you could search this site and that in itself is a great help.

Thanks, Diz

[Fred]

Thanks, Axel. I feel smarter already. I based my assumption on something I read about the 8.15 being promoted as a standard target cartridge. I gathered that it performed somewhat like the new smokeless military round but was more suitable for existing target ranges. Plus, with the small case capacity, it never crossed my mind that it would be anything but for smokeless.

[Old No7]

Waidmannsheil to all.

Great info up above, and I really appreciate Axel sharing his time and expertise! Vielen danke.

This is a great site and I'm pleased to be a newer GGCA member.

Waidmannsdanke.

Old No7

[gmkmd]

Hi; newbie here. Just got my first rifle in 8.15x46R, a Wehrmannsgewehr. Would anybody care to share their favorite loads? I also got some new RWS brass, and some Haendler & Natermann 170gr 0.318 spire-point lead bullets.

[DreyseM65]

I use 12 grs of 4227 with 165 gr stop ring bullet in all my 8.15x46R rifles.

Who made your Wehrmannsgewehr? I have a 1908 Mauser Oberndorf and a Haenel Lorenz.

[sharps4590]

I have two 8.15's. One a Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifle and the other a Friedrich Jacob Bartles on an Ideal action. I call it a stalking rifle but don't know if that's right. The Haenel likes 20 grs.. of Reloader 7 under a plain ol' Lee, 170 gr., 8mm bullet sized to .318. The Bartles likes the same bullet over 12 grs. of SR-4759. The Bartels shoots the same Reloader 7 load as well and as I'm about out of 4759 I expect that will become my go to load for it.

[yamoon]

I began shooting an 8.5x46 in ‘84 been shooting that round ever since. My favorite load in 13gr IMR 4227, 165gr NEI stop ring when cast 25 to 1 weighs 172gr. I use Remington large rifle primers. I have several Schuetzen rifles and a few stalking rifles in this caliber. I shoot some more than others, but enjoy them all.
Mike