Karl Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrikant

[algmule]

Hello

Does anyone have information on a Karl Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrikant? I have him mentioned in 1938, Suhl, but he is not one of the owners of the two other Kelber businesses - Wilhelm Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrik, owners, Wilhelm and Erich Kelber or Louis Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrik, owner Louis Kelber, nor is he listed as being an owner or part owner of any other Gewehrlauffabrik (Max Stoll; Richard W. J?ger: Emil Klett) in Suhl.

Address for Karl Kelber is given as Wertherstra?e 1 (two doors away from Wilhelm and Erich) in 1938. He is still in Suhl in 1949 but listed as B?chsenmacher at Tr?benbachstra?e 1.

Below is an image of markings I've been pondering. I've seen it suggested that this/those marking/s is/are perhaps for Richard W. J?ger's establishment (Gewehrlauffabrik) Heinrichs bei Suhl (1938) but I have no knowledge if this is in fact so.
DubbelNN.jpg
The markings are on a barrel proofed 1942 in Suhl. The inserted image is a K taken from a German publication. To me the markings are two K's but I'm not in any way suggesting it/they was/were Karl Kelber's trade mark, if, indeed, he had a trade mark, or a Gewehrlauffabrik, for that matter. I've also seen the markings described as being J's. For a while I had them down as being N's but I've scrapped that notion.

As for above mentioned Emil Klett, Gewehrlauffabrik, I have no information on who owned the establishment but I'm guessing it was Emil Klett.

EDIT: forgot, but I'd be interested if the markings in the above image have been noted before 1931.

EDIT again: No, marking/s not for Karl Kelber. I found an old thread that shows a barrel proofed in 1927 (in Zella-Mehlis) and I can't find a Karl Kelber for that year. If K, and I assume anyone with a name not beginning with k may have used a K as trade mark, but for now I'm pursuing the K-name lead. If not K, there was a Gewehrlauffabrik Fritz Seyffarth, Zella-Mehlis. Documented 1928 and 1941. Can't say I know anything on him.

Yet another EDIT: apparently a marking FS in an oval is for Fritz Seyffarth. Back to the drawing board.

A further EDIT: found another F. S-marking, this time in a triangle. Zella-Mehlis proofed barrel from 1927
FSinTriangle1927Z-M-2.jpg
I have nothing for this marking.

Addition: I best add I'm aware that there was a Richard W. J?ger establishment (Gewehrlauf-Fabrik) in Zella-Mehlis as well. At least up until and including 1936.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

kk1925.JPG

Rifle wears Suhl proof marks. These "K's" look somewhat different than the ones in my previous post.

I'm not so sure there was any "hard border" between Suhl and Zella-Mehlis, so, the culprit may very well have come from Zella-Mehlis, and at least one rifle wearing the "KK"-marking(s) wears proofs from the facility in Zella-Mehlis. I'll continue to dig.

In or around 1925 the following Gewehrlauffabriken are listed:

Richard W. J?ger - Zella-Mehlis and Heinrichs bei Suhl, 1924, 1925
Heinrich Klett S?hne - Zella-Mehlis, 1924, 1925
(Max M?ller - listed as Rohrmacher - Zella-Mehlis, 1924, 1925)
Gebr?der Kelber - Suhl, 1925
Caspar Schlegelmilch - Suhl, 1925 (founded 1818, or so Alfred Menz claimed)
Ernst Stoll - Suhl, 1925 (also as Gewehr-Laufzieherei)
F. A. Klett - Suhl, 1925
J. P. Sauer & Sohn - Suhl [Steinsfeld], 1925
Hermann Schlegelmilch - Suhl, 1925

Other suspects:

Karl T?dtmann - Suhl - Gewehr-Laufzieher, 1925
Heinrich Just - Suhl - Gewehr-Laufrichter, 1925
+ a whole host of possible "K-people", and others as well................

Sometime around 1927-28, the August Menz establishment took over the Caspar Schlegelmilch business, owner in 1928 Alfred Menz. The August Menz establishment advertised rifle barrels in 1928. They specialized in "Wehrmannsl?ufe". For how long they kept up barrel manufacturing I don't know. In 1935 their speciality was "P.-B. -Hahn-Pistole mit Revolverabzug und auswechselbaren L?ufen".

Some of the above names are/were automagically ruled out over time but someone may have taken over the "KK"-marking(s). Time now spans from 1925 to 1942.

Anyone owning a rifle barrel with the "KK"-marking(s)"? Feel free to chime in.

Kind regards
Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Here is another rifle barrel with the double Fraktur-K marking. This one also has the MM initials of Max M?ller.

https://www.germanguns.com/vb5/forum...fs-model-maker

In August 1927 Max M?ller is not listed as owner of a barrel manufacturing business. I believe the person/business behind the double Fraktur-K marking manufactured the barrel. Max M?ller must have contributed some work as well.

Anyone owning a gun with the Fraktur double Fraktur-K marking is welcome to enlighten us by posting in the thread. I started out thinking the double Fraktur-K marking was for Karl Kelber. I quickly changed my mind. However, I believe one of the Kelber barrel manufacturing companies is behind the marking. A rifle barrel proofed 1925 is the earliest appearance of the double Fraktur-K marking I know of. In 1925 there was only one Kelber establishment. Sometime around 1927-28 the Kelber brothers split up. Perhaps one of the then two Kelber businesses continued to use the marking.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Barrel set with the double Fraktur-K marking and also with WK (Wilhelm Kelber?) and a possible FS (Fritz Seyf[f]arth?). Note that the double Fraktur-K marking is in the different "font" that is also on the rifle barrel in my second post. Anyone owning a gun with the double Fraktur-K marking is welcome to chime in.

WKKK.JPG

Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
This amount of "detail" is too much "in the weeds" for my limited knowledge, but your remark about a "hard border between Zella Mehlis and Suhl, reminded of the competition between the two areas. However the gunmakers seemed to freely use barrels made in the opposite area. Finding one proofed in Suhl with a Zella Mehlis ( or even Belgian) barrel wouldn't be especially surprising.
Regarding Max Moeller, I believe he was also a gunmaker. I have what I believe is a Max Moeller drilling "made for the trade" the barrel has the mm mark that is often seen, but it also has a different MM mark with intertwined or supper posed letters in a circle, that I took to belong to the gunmaker.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike Ford,
thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing images. If you don't have a digital camera ask a younger relative/neighbour/friend to help you out. If you have one I offer to start a new "how to post images thread".

The establishments in Suhl probably looked down their noses at the establishments in Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis (later Zella-Mehlis) and the establishments in Zella-Mehlis probably thought of the Suhl ones as posh pr*cks but business is always business and has been so in the past as well, and most likely will continue to be nothing but business. People haven't changed that much and are not likely to change in the near future either.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Not that anyone is interested but there is an interesting double rifle on the NitroExpress Forum which wears both the double K-marking (the stylized variant) and also a single Fraktur K-marking on each barrel. In the thread on the NitroExpress Forum it is claimed that an "ornate K mark" is for Ernst Kerner, Suhl. I don't know anything about it but find it really interesting. Not only for a new possibility into researching the K-markings but also, perhaps, for the fact that that information didn't trickle through in this thread. I have a fairly certain idea why that is.

Here's the link
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=354941&an=0&page=0#Post3 54941

Nice double rifle: I read an initial-marking on it as H.S. I suggest Heinrich Schilling but it's a mere suggestion. Could very well be for someone else.

Also: and yet again if there should be anyone interested. There was a Gebr?der Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrik, Suhl, listed up to April 30, 1931. For now I put my penny on Louis Kelber continuing that company name after Wilhelm broke loose around 1927-28. When/if he changed the name I don't know. Yet.

Another also: one of the names mentioned in one of my earlier posts is interesting in relation to the Kelbers, the name Stoll.

Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
If you PM me your email I will try to send you images of what I believe are Max Moeller marks. I intend to photograph them tomorrow.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

Mike,
PM sent, or so I like to believe.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

Another one that wears the double-K markings.
https://www.germanguns.com/vb5/forum...a-8x57jr-value
Rifle barrel wears the "L". This "L" is claimed to have belonged to Gebr?der Kelber. Not sure if there still was a business by that name in 1934. The name, though, was still listed in 1931 (see a post above).
LtogetherwithdoubleK.JPG
Still interested to find out if the double-K marking occurs before 1925. Feel free to be helpful.

Peter

[Axel E]

Gebrueder Kelber = Kelber Brothers Louis and Wilhelm split up in 1927 – 28. Louis Kelber, at the original address Truebenbachstr. 1/3, continued to use the script L mark. Wilhelm Kelber set up his own business at Beiersgrund 3. He used the well known WK mark. A listing of the Suhl guntrade companies, compiled by the occupying US forces in April 1945, still listed both Kelbers, as well as W.Richard Jaeger, Gustloffstr. 34, and Max Stoll, Doellstr. 4, as existing Suhl barrelmaking factories.
Those doubled marks under the barrels usually do not show the party who bored and rifled the blank, but the man who fitted, chambered ad headspaced the barrel on the action. This may have been the business of Karl Kelber as it conforms with his postwar description as Buechsenmacher. Or he may have been an employee of one of the larger Suhl companies who had their own barrelmaking facilities.

[algmule]

Hello

Amtsgericht Suhl, den 30. November 1945.
Die im Handelsregister Abt. A. unter Nr. 627 eingetragene Firma Wilhelm Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrik, Suhl, ist heute ge?ndert worden. Sie lautet jetzt: Wilhelm Kelber, Metallwarenfabrik, Suhl.
(Regierungsblatt f?r das Land Th?ringen, 1946, p 80)

Axel,
thanks. There must have been more craftsmen than Wilhelm Kelber using a WK-marking as it occurs in several different shapes, and in different shapes on the same barrel(s). The WK in italics is the most likely for Wilhelm Kelber. I have suggestions for the others as well but need to do further research. Wilhelm Kelber is found with the title Rohrmacher in 1949 (Suhl).
WKs.jpg
WKs2.jpg
WKZella-Mehlis.jpg
Here are more K's
Ks.jpg

EDIT: Louis Kelber also had a Metallwarenfabrik in 1949 (Suhl), at Tr?benbachstra?e 2a.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

A rifle barrel that went through the Zella-Mehlis facility in August 1927 wears the double K-marking (the one in my first post in this thread) as well as the marking MM for Max M?ller. Sadly there was neither a Karl Kelber in Suhl nor in Zella-Mehlis for that year. Karl Kelber turns up in the latter part of the 1930's, in Suhl. Anyway, I had already scrapped the notion the marking was for him.

If Max M?ller bored and rifled the barrel there must have been someone who chambered it and fitted the barrel to the action. So, either he or someone who ordered the barrel from him must have had someone to perform this work. Back to the drawing board.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello
Here's an over and under 12 gauge with the double K-marking(s). It could be there is an L (the one which is similar to the British currency "L") after the grenade/bullet marking.

Interesting that it's a Kerner and that it's a shotgun.

EDIT: the link doesn't work. Sorry. It's posted in the ID and and value section on that board. I'm working on it. Don't hold your breath.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello
It is the first gun in the top link that wears the markings mentioned in the post above.
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads...er-o-u.500378/

I hope the link works. Also, I wasn't able to remove the bottom link in this post. I did try, but the forum put up fierce resistance so I simply decided to give in. For now.......

Peter